Dungeons & Dragons: Is anything essential?

[Voadam]

I think they showed up in 1E OA. My friends and I didn't use them. They became core in 2E, and changed quite a bit.

In OA they were an option to spend weapon proficiencies on, then in Dungeoneers Survival Guide and Wilderness Survival Guide they were split into specifically a different category from weapon proficiencies with different rates of proficiency slot acquisitions.

2e was pretty much the DSG and WSG system.

 

[fusangite]

Is any one aspect of the game essential? Obviously if enough aspects are changed at once, it would cease to be D&D. But what about a single element? Are d20s to hit essential? What about a particular class? Do we need wizards? What about the class system as a whole? Levels? The plethora of monsters and magic items? What if there were no monsters, or no dungeons. Would the game still work?

D&D is like an ancestral lineage. What matters is similarity between one edition and the next. Similarity across all editions is not important. As long as 4E has a lot of 3E elements in it, it will be D&D, even if it has vitually no 1E elements in it.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

roll d20 to hit, levels and classes.

 

[kibbitz]

Are there specific spells or magic items that are essential, such as fireball or +1 longswords, or does the game just need a long list of spells/items? For example I'm sure you could take away Keoghtom's Ointment or the Apparatus of Kwalish and no one would notice.

Spells, stuff like Magic Missile, Shield, Web, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Finger of Death, Meteor Swarm. For magic items, it's mainly the +<value> equipment.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I think it might have been UA.

Nope, Oriental Adventures. And a slightly different version in DSG and a different version in the WSG (each SG had differetn resolution and modifier mechanics).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In OA they were an option to spend weapon proficiencies on, then in Dungeoneers Survival Guide and Wilderness Survival Guide they were split into specifically a different category from weapon proficiencies with different rates of proficiency slot acquisitions.

2e was pretty much the DSG and WSG system.

That explains it. We drifted away from RPGs after OA and Manual of the Planes. (We moved a lot -- army brats.)

Anyway, there's a big difference between being in the DSG/WSG and being in the PHB.

If 4E used a lot of stuff from the Book of 9 Swords, it wouldn't be without precedent, but there'd be a lot of people going "what the heck is THIS," much like I did with the 2E PHB. (Although I quickly came around to the notion of skills.)

 

[Bavix]

Sacred What?

d20 for skills, checks, and attacks (notice that I didn't say saves because I hope they go with the static saves like Star Wars Saga has), classes, and levels. I can tell you the thing that needs to be dumped from D&D—the entire magic system. If they do not completely scrap and rewrite the magic system from the ground up, I won't even consider buying 4E.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If they do not completely scrap and rewrite the magic system from the ground up, I won't even consider buying 4E.

Given the diverse number of well-regarded D20 and OGL alternatives -- and that OGL is forever and ever, amen -- why wouldn't you just use the 4E versions of one of them when the time comes?

 

[Zaruthustran]

Now classes are just templates to heap on abilities with a slight nod to the vocation in question, and you see characters with five, six or more classes, quite often with completely nonsensical combinations.

If that is the way of the game, where choosing classes is simply a salad bar, then they might as well be dumped. They provide no real game benefit, and the same net effect can be done more elegantly in other ways.

Quoted for truth. Free multiclassing means that you're just buying abilities, anyway. It just so happens that the abilities are sold at stores with names like "Rogue's Sneak Attack & Evasion Emporium", "Fighter Fred's Feat Factory", and "Drizz'agorn's House of TWF".

My current character is a rogue 1 / ranger 3 / fighter 2 / scout 1 / wildrunner 2 / shadowdancer 3. I dipped and cherry-picked abilities because, well, I wanted to and the game doesn't care either way. I wanted a skilled sneaky wilderness guy with ambush abilities, speed, and freaky savage traits, who could fight and disappear without a trace pretty much at will, and who had a cool undead buddy. No single class offered all that, so I multiclassed.

It would have been simpler to just pick abilities from a list. Or choose talent trees. Net effect is exactly the same, but the process is less cumbersome.

 

[TheYeti1775]

So if 4E was GURPS, you wouldn't bat an eye? I find that hard to believe.

I'd say the D20, levels, classes, multiple races, inhuman foes, the notion that there are subterranean areas full of stuff to fight.

Bat an eye, most likely I would. But then again, I've played GURPS worlds before. And had fun doing it.

Without players the game ceases in it's entirity is what I was saying.

Is a 'Storyteller' verision of a DnD session any non-DnD'd then a 'Hack-n-Slash' randomly pick a monster from a book and kill it verision? Nope, just focused on different aspects of the game.

Though I would probably pick up any 4E stuff that came out, I think my group would mainly stick with the 3E worlds we play now. With our books and all currently, we can get a long just fine with or without any 4E input to our group.

My only hope is before 4E comes out they milk the 3E for all it's worth and publish a Spelljammer in 3E Hardback.