Dungeons & Dragons Lite: Am I the Only One?

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't mind adding most supplements that work with the standard system once I've given them a once over. The things I wont normally add into a campaign though I may start a campaign with are things like psionics or magic of incarnum.

The one item of rules bloat that pisses me off though are the feats that narrow the abilities you had before the feat came out. My favorite example comes out of the eberon setting with the absolute horrible invesitgate feat(and a few others like this). So I now need to have this feat to search for frikin clues with the search skill. What braniac thought the examples under the search skill were an all inclusive list of what you could search for.

Apparently I couldn't find any clues before eberon, but now I can. The only people who need to find a clue are the writers of feats like this. At most this should be a new use for a skill, though even new use sounds bad to me. More like here are guidelines for the DC of finding clues with the search skill.

 

[Henry]

Most of them use absolutely blatant rules abuses and combos which simply cannot exist (dipping resources from Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Greyhawk with equal fervor)

It's viable, since Razz's supposition was pretty much, "All supplements, all the time." That's what surprised me.

...(the hulking hurler is a glass cannon... he's got pathetic saves, poor hit points, and an armor class usually reserved for paralyzed sheep)...in any situation other than their ideal situation, theory builds are significantly underpowered.

Not as glass as you'd think, especially if he gets the drop, in which case "he who acts first, won't need to act again." Hurlers aside, There are also lesser egregious faults (Stonechild is another one for me, as is the Radiant Servant PrC) - the race is just bulging with power, The PrC does Cleric even better than Cleric does. But the race has a glass jaw itself with such a high level adjustment, making it a horrible fit for your average party of levelled dwarves and humans and elves, which can dish it out as well as take it. This is a balance issue in itself, as far as I'm concerned.

If you're looking at just 3.5, the power scale has decreased dramatically from the early days (Book of Exalted Deeds).

Exalted Deeds isn't exactly "early" (it was released in early 2003, and the Exalted feats were some of the most mind-blowing I've ever seen in balance terms), but I agree in the sentiment - as I said, they've done a lot in the past year to tone it down, but the combo effect from such a wide range means that the more sources you introduce, the more you have to look out for. I'm not averse to it, but if I opened all the doors wide open for a serious long-term campaign, it's never lasted long because the combo of abilities ramps up the numbers game to a crazy level to accomplish the same effect that the core game accomplishes.

The problem is this: WotC can and has produced some of the strangest power-combos I've ever seen, all the while it's argued that "WotC's stuff is remarkably balanced." It's my hope in people like Mike Mearls that this trend changes for the better, because to date this year, while WotC has gotten better on the power curve, they haven't produced anything different enough for me to care. I've used more third-party stuff that is well-done and innovative than I have WotC stuff.

As I said earlier, I'm glad they're making something for everyone, but Dismissal of someone's game out of hand (as in Razz's post) just because it doesn't open every option available I just can't fathom. I've played in games that allowed every 3.0 supplement imaginable, myself, and it was fun - but I didn't take it seriously, because Half-Celestial Sorcerer-Maestros were flying around blasting things to pieces alongside Half-Fiendish Minotaurs dual-wielding Flaming Greatswords, and it kinda blew my suspension of disbelief to pieces.

 

[jdrakeh]

Shaman, if you're going to let one person's opinion drive you from the forum, we'll miss you, but I'm a bit amazed you'd let it get to you.

It might merely be a case of 'the straw that broke the camel's back' as the saying goes. I know that when I see deliberately offensive opinion and/or poster X every day for months on end, sometimes it gets to me a lot. I say kudos to the guy who knows when to take a break. It's better than going out in a blaze of flaming glory

 

[Remathilis]

Excellent example with the diners. I really like it.

And despite playing in several 'everything Wizard is allowed' games, I should point out I've had yet to see even a single 25th level half-gelatinous Cube / half-stone golem. In fact, pretty much all the characters involved have been straight core rulebook classes, with I think one core-rulebook prestige class. Sure, there were a few feats and such from other books thrown in and a few psionic classes, but for the most part, it was still mostly core, as probably all games are, despite how many books are allowed to be used, because no matter how many supplements they publish, the core rules are called 'core' for a reason - they will be at the center of every campaign that is D&D, even if there does happen to be a 25th level half-gelatinous cube / half-stone golem, which I somehow suspect is really just hyperbole against using a stray spell or feat that isn't in the core rulebooks.

Exactly.

Even with over 15 supplemental books in play, I rarely see PCs using more than the PH and perhaps a spell, feat, or prc from some random book (usually the appropriate Complete X book).

No 25th level templated BS.

 

[barsoomcore]

My campaigns tend to use more house rules than any published set anyways, so this whole debate is nothing but entertainment to me.

Let's try it this way, folks: If you're having fun, you're doing it correctly. If you're not, you're doing it wrong, so try some other style until there's fun.

 

[Desdichado]

My campaigns tend to use more house rules than any published set anyways, so this whole debate is nothing but entertainment to me.

barsoomcore! I was wondering where you were just yesterday. Your blog's been quiet, haven't see you post in weeks. How's it going?

Anyway, I chimed in, quoting you, because we have very, very similar tastes in game. I like more material because it gives me more options, not more bloat. The last campaign I ran had about five or six alternate classes available to replace all but three of the core classes, all new races (with the exception of human), a completely different magic system (from Call of Cthulhu d20, actually), Sanity, encounters from Monsternomcon, Book of Fiends, Creatures of Rokugan, Tome of Horrors, etc. Without all kinds of options being in print, I'd have to either have adapted all that into D&D, losing most of my flavor, or write all that stuff myself (which means it probably would never have been done, frankly.)

More rules doesn't necessarily mean more bloat, unless you're using all of them at once.

Let's try it this way, folks: If you're having fun, you're doing it correctly. If you're not, you're doing it wrong, so try some other style until there's fun.

Bingo-matic.