Dungeons of Dread Preview 5

[arscott]

Yeah. I love those weird geometric wings.

 

[frankthedm]

For some reason, the Angel of Valor reminds me a lot of the Mage Knight Solonavi.

Ehh, Solonavi had a definite leg up on this mini. Maybe if the real fig has both weapons and wings completely clear it will look alright.

 

[Plane Sailing]

threads merged!

 

[frankthedm]

Though probably nothing will ever beat Diablo angels for awesomeness.

That was a good angel

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6488/tyrealnh6.gif


ANd for those who are not familiar with the Mage Knight Solonavi figs, here are a few...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Interesting Preview, a few things on of note.

Firstly, maybe I am slow on the uptake this morning but those hit point totals are confusing me.

If a Controller gets 4hp/level and a Soldier gets 6hp/level, then the Hag seems pretty straightforward (when contrasted with the Rogue Class)

9 (Base for Controllers at 1st Level?) + 24 (6 Levels x 4hp/level) + 12 (Con Score)...or something like that.

Or maybe Monsters get no base and its simply:

7 (Level) x 4 (Controller) + 17 (Con score) = 45

But then we come to the Angel.

15 (Base for Soldiers at 1st Level?) + 42 (7 Levels x 6hp/level) + -2 Con Score - doesn't make sense.

The second method nets us:

8 (Level) x 6 (Soldier) + 7 (Con Score?) = 55...again the Con score doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

Anyone take a stab at it?

Secondly, the article mentions that the Level 8 Angel Soldier has a variant for a Level 21 Minion. Now while I am sure the math changes slightly between the Level 8 and Level 21 versions, its fair to say they probably want to keep the monster as similar as possible with mostly the math changing(?). Thus we can guesstimate the difference between Standard Monsters and Minion Variants can be as high a difference as 13 Levels...personally I thought it would be 10 Levels as a rule of thumb; meaning you see a clear tier jump of 10 between standard and minion variants.

Thirdly, Shriek of Pain (I really like that power) seems to confirm that Cones are in, I seem to remember there was some speculation that they wouldn't be in the game.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Sure - the designers have mentioned that if you want a Creature to have x Hp it has x Hp there isn't a hard and fast rule. Reverse engineering is thus going to be harder than in the past.

Its about game balance and making the monster do what you want through direct engineering of the creature rather than by following a pre-set formula.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Cailte!

Sure - the designers have mentioned that if you want a Creature to have x Hp it has x Hp there isn't a hard and fast rule. Reverse engineering is thus going to be harder than in the past.

Its about game balance and making the monster do what you want through direct engineering of the creature rather than by following a pre-set formula.

But if the system itself is already robust enough then why make minor changes just for the heck of it!?

Lets for example, say all monsters gain hp as follows:

Lurker 3hp/level + Con score
Controller 4hp/level + Con score
Skirmisher: 5hp/level + Con Score
Soldier: 6hp/level + Con Score
Brute: 7hp/level + Con Score

Elite Monsters get double base (everything other than Con score), while Solo monsters get five times base.

Lets look at the monsters so far:

Spined Devil: L6 Skirmisher w. 15 Con = 45 hp 2hp difference
Pit Fiend: L26 Elite Soldier w. 27 Con = 339 hp 11 hp difference
Ice Archon: L18(?) Soldier w. 18 Con(?) = 126 hp 8 hp difference
Balhannoth: L13 Lurker w. 11 Con(?) = 50 hp same
Immolith: L15 Controller w. No Con(?) = 60 hp 30 hp difference
Howling Hag: L7 Controller w. 17 Con(?) = 45 hp same
Angel of Valor: L8 Soldier w. 15 Con(?) = 63 hp 8 hp difference
Death Knight: L13 Elite Soldier w. No Con(?) = 156 hp 76 hp difference
Vampire Vizier: L11 Elite Controller w. No Con(?) = 88 hp 13 hp difference

Now (Death Knight Aside and possibly the Immolith as well), why the heck wouldn't you stick to a simple system such as the one above, rather than (seemingly) arbitrarily shifting hit points up or down by a virtually irrelevant percentage?

 

[Intrope]

Secondly, the article mentions that the Level 8 Angel Soldier has a variant for a Level 21 Minion. Now while I am sure the math changes slightly between the Level 8 and Level 21 versions, its fair to say they probably want to keep the monster as similar as possible with mostly the math changing(?). Thus we can guesstimate the difference between Standard Monsters and Minion Variants can be as high a difference as 13 Levels...personally I thought it would be 10 Levels as a rule of thumb; meaning you see a clear tier jump of 10 between standard and minion variants.

It looks like Minion isn't a template: I read this as being that the Level 8 Soldier Angel of Valor and the Level 21 Minion Angel of Valor (and the Level ~15 Minion Angel of Valor mentioned in the Monsters^3 podcast) are different stat blocks--possibly with somewhat different abilities (for faster play) as well as different numerical strengths.

That makes since to me; essentially, it's saying that not all members of the race are actually identical. The more powerful Angels of Valor are generally used as bodyguards by more powerful beings, and the lesser ones are relegated to the army.

Ironically, that means that the Minion AoV are probably more powerful than the non-minion AoV.

 

[frankthedm]

Firstly, maybe I am slow on the uptake this morning but those hit point totals are confusing me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now (Death Knight Aside and possibly the Immolith as well), why the heck wouldn't you stick to a simple system such as the one above, rather than (seemingly) arbitrarily shifting hit points up or down by a virtually irrelevant percentage?

The Minis game has HP shifting from the D&D creatures to ensure multiples of 5HP and to tweak a units value for its points cost. The shifting is done by designer, so formula, while used to drive to the HP ballpark, takes a back seat when the designer says, “This fig would be better costed with a few less HP and few less points”.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Intrope!

It looks like Minion isn't a template: I read this as being that the Level 8 Soldier Angel of Valor and the Level 21 Minion Angel of Valor (and the Level ~15 Minion Angel of Valor mentioned in the Monsters^3 podcast) are different stat blocks--possibly with somewhat different abilities (for faster play) as well as different numerical strengths.

That makes since to me; essentially, it's saying that not all members of the race are actually identical. The more powerful Angels of Valor are generally used as bodyguards by more powerful beings, and the lesser ones are relegated to the army.

Ironically, that means that the Minion AoV are probably more powerful than the non-minion AoV.

Yes, that was pretty much how I expected, we already knew about the different versions of the Cambion (for instance).

Presumably its fairly easy to rework monsters to higher level (in effect lowering their relative power) but not vice versa.

I think its pretty cool neat, and extends the lifespan of the monster in question without requiring levels and/or templates.