[Dusk] The spell point system

[Michael Morris]

Blue spells are more dependent on Dusk's spell point system, so it too will be opened up this month for revision and clarification. I encourage all to please help with this system, which is as simple and straightforward a way I can think of to add spell points to the game without changing the existing spells and feats (though it is certainly possible to make spells & feats which are dependent on it).

The system is here (I won't post it here because the tables won't look right)

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/hosted/Dusk/?file=magic.php&body=./magic/_spellpoint.php

 

[gpetruc]

I don't understand the table with the cost of the spells:

Spells cost an amount of points equal to their level and the level they are cast at. Spells can never be cast below a certain power level

If I want to cast, let's say, a Fireball at Caster Level 8, I have to pay:
a) 8 spell points (3rd level)
b) 11 spell points (caster level 7)
c) 14 spell points (caster level 9)
d) 8 (3rd level spell) + 8 (caster level)
e) something else

The sorcerer gains the ability to apply meta-magic on the fly too or only the bard does ?

Anyway the system is nice, and I will probably use it in my homebrew setting (nothing to be published, of course) if you allow (I'll state I got it from you, anyway)

 

[Oni]

I don't understand the table with the cost of the spells:

If I want to cast, let's say, a Fireball at Caster Level 8, I have to pay:
a) 8 spell points (3rd level)
b) 11 spell points (caster level 7)
c) 14 spell points (caster level 9)
d) 8 (3rd level spell) + 8 (caster level)
e) something else

The sorcerer gains the ability to apply meta-magic on the fly too or only the bard does ?

Anyway the system is nice, and I will probably use it in my homebrew setting (nothing to be published, of course) if you allow (I'll state I got it from you, anyway)

Unless Mr. Morris changed it when I wasn't looking I think I can answer some of these. Let's use your example of an 8th level caster casting a fireball which is a third level spell.

3 points for being a third level spell + a minimum of 5 points as that is the minimum level (the minimum level for a sorcerer is technically 6th, but the cost is based on the chart not on the specific vageries of the classes) needed to cast it. So for 8 spell points you cast a 5d6 fireball. For every spell point you add to that up to your caster level you add a casterlevel to the spell you are casting, so 9 points 6d6, 10 points 7d6, and so forth.

Sorcerers can use their metamagic feats on the fly as well, see the portion under metamagic.


Anyway I very much like this spellpoint system too, I find it to be both simple and elegant.

 

[Michael Morris]

I don't understand the table with the cost of the spells:

If I want to cast, let's say, a Fireball at Caster Level 8, I have to pay:
a) 8 spell points (3rd level)

Fireball (Level 3) at 8th level: 3+8 = 11.

The rules state that you cannot cast Fireball at less than 5th level of ability, so 8 points is the least it can possibly cost.

The sorcerer gains the ability to apply meta-magic on the fly too or only the bard does ?

Both do, but if it isn't clear I need to change it.

Anyway the system is nice, and I will probably use it in my homebrew setting (nothing to be published, of course) if you allow (I'll state I got it from you, anyway)

Thank you.

 

[Michael Morris]

Ok, now I'm going to discuss some of the problems (or at least wrinkles of) my system.

The first is that the low level casters actually get much stronger under this system. A first level wizard has 8 base spell points - that's enough to throw 4 magic missiles. When you include the 4 bonus spell points for an 18 intelligence you have 6 magic missiles. This is quite a step up from 3 possible under the old system for a specialist invoker. The sorcerer with an 18 charisma gets even scarier, tossing 8 magic missiles compared to the 4 possible under slots. On the healing side of the coin the cleric with an 18 wisdom is throwing 4 cure light wounds spells compared to the 3 he had. The 1st level bard has enough spell points to pop 6 cantrips, a whopping change from the 2 she had.

Speaking of cantrips, all this is assuming the non-bards are not using their cantrips, so in the end it sort of balances out. Still, until about 5th level the casters are stronger under this system. Using the wizard as a guide, look at the number of spell points they gain under the new system compared to the spell point VALUE of the spells they gain under the old system (In a slot system a wizard casts all spells at maximum caster possible since there is no reason to cast a spell at a lower level than one is able). Note that both wizards in this example are presumed to have an 18 intelligence, not because this is the most common case but because it is potentially the most unbalancing.

[color=white]
	Old	New
Level	sys	Sys
1	9	12
2	17	20
3	30	32
4	54	40
5	81	52
6	117	60
7	156	72
8	197	80
[/color]

Quite a difference eh?

Geometric vs. Linear progression
The chart above reveals a fundemental problem with the slot system - it is a geometrical system. If this chart were carried out to 20th level it would show the wizard with the equivalent of 1010 spell points under the slot system, compared to 196 under the Dusk spell point system. Little wonder then that fighters, rogues and other non-casters fall behind in power compared to the casters.

For those who aren't up to speed on their math, a gemometric progression is one that increases in two dimensions. The slot system does this because not only do the number of slots increase, but so too does the power of each slot. A 10th level fighter and a 1st level fighter gain the same bonus for their 1st level feat slot - a +1 to AC against certain opponents (dodge) for instance. A first level wizard's magic missile doesn't begin to compare with a 10th level wizard's, which is 5x as potent!!

In recognition of this 3e has spell caps on spells to try to arrest this growth which, left unrestricted, can grow to riduculous proportions (anyone who's watched 20th level 1st edition casters knows what I'm talking about here.. 10 magic missiles per volley is NOT cool). Spell caps are at best a hasty patch, they don't really solve the problem and, what is worse, they are unpopular with some groups and get thoughtlessly left out.

By comparison, the Dusk spell point system is a linear progression. The spell potential of casters grows at a fixed one-dimensional rate like everything else in the game. While 196 points is more than enough for a single encounter, it isn't an overwhelming amount.

Playing Smarter
Casters aren't up the creek without a paddle though. Where the slot system didn't reward intelligent use of spell power, the spell point system does. There is now a very real reason to cast a fireball at the 5th level of ability to blast some kobolds rather than use a 10th level one. This really comes into play with cantrips and divinations. For instance, is there really a point in casting detect magic at the 20th level of ability?? No. So this utility spell stays at 1 point per use.

On the other end of the scale, the spell point system makes it possible to ignore artificial spell caps because low level spells cast at high power levels cost roughly the same amount of spell points as their high level cousins. A 20d6 20th level fireball gulps an astonishing 23 spell points. A 20th level meteor swarm is 29 points, only 6 points more (for a much better effect).

And now, the proposed changes
The spell point system on the Dusk site is simple enough to be quickly learned and elegant enough to not require the GM to readjust every spell he comes across in other books. But it still isn't perfect. These are some revisions I have in mind, most of which deal with class balance issues.

Better Druids
Druids use their spells more often than clerics, so putting them at 4 points / level has over weakened them. In the proposed revision druids gain 6 spell points / level. This puts them between a wizard and a cleric in spell point allotments. They no longer continue to gain 6 skill points / level in the spell point system.

Divine Casters
All divine casters continue to prepare spells and not lose them when cast as described in the spell point system. With the changes to the wizard they will have less more flexiability than the wizard or even the sorcerer (since they can change their spells each day) but they will lag behind both in sheer firepower. Along with the changes above this makes the druid considerably more dangerous than before.


Cleric Changes
Clerics lose their spontaneous casting abiliy entirely - they won't need it since if they bother to prepare even one cure spell they can use it as often as desired. In exchange they consider both their domains "prepared" but they still must use their spell points to cast their domain spell (they can cast it as often as they can afford to). Hence the healing domain sort of replaces the spontaneous curing ability already - and players that always want a cure on the fly should seriously consider taking this domain.

Clerics also gain a new ability: They can use their spell points to supplement their turning attempts for the day. To make a turning attempt this way they pay X spell points, where X is the turning level they desire. They can also can turn at a lesser level by spending fewer spell points. than their actual level (useful for ridding oneself of skeletons and other lesser undead).

Clerics have the fewest spell points of the major casters now that druids move up to 6 points / level. However, clerics have always had a strong fighting arm and armor selection - options the druid has been weak at and the arcane casters never really could consider. Still, this sytem drops them out of being the strongest class in the game to somewhere in the middle.


Bards
Bards lose the ability to freely apply metamagic feats. They return to their 1 round casting time increase.

Wizards
Wizards aren't so lucky. As a default they now lose their preparations Vancian style when they cast a spell. At low levels they can easily run out of spells before they run out of spell points. The exception to this rule are spells that the wizard has masterd with their spell mastery feat. When a wizard uses these spells the preparation remains - making this feat far more useful to the wizard.

Wizards also have the option of applying metamagic feats to spells on the fly if they haven't prepared them this way. Doing this increases the casting time by 1 round. Hence if a wizard wants to use quicken spell he still has to prepare it that way.

Sorcerers
Sorcererers are unchanged in the revision.

Metamagic feats
Metamagic feats no longer increase the level a spell is prepared at - they merely increase the cost to use the spell by 3 points per level they would have raised it. Hence even a 1st level wizard can prepare a quickened magic missile, but it will cost him an extra 12 points to cast it. Metamagic feats that do not list a level increase will increase the spell point cost by 1 (This stops some rather broken combos when the same metamagic feat is applied to a spell multiple times).


All ideas and comments are welcome.

 

[Michael Morris]

Weakness of Spell point systems in general

While reading another thread, (Spell point pools) I've noted a common weakness in spell point systems (mine included) - they do not restrict a caster's access to their high level spells as well as the slot system.

For instance, in the Dusk system the 20th level wizard's 196 points, while small comparied to the normal systems 1010 points, can still be used to throw 7 9th level spells at 17th level of ability. The 20th level sorcerer can throw 9 9th level spells at 17th level of ability.

The wizard has a restrainer in that he still much lose preparations - so this problem is solved in the revision. The sorcerer can put on a dramatic fireworks display in short order though - so is some restriction needed on the number of spells / level?? With the Dusk system I'm thinking not - the spell points are kept very low for this very reason. Also, the presence of mutliple good counterspells in the setting makes going in with your most powerf spells blazing a bad idea. Having a 29 point meteor swarm nerfed by an 11 point counterspell just sucks.

Still, food for thought.

 

[LrdApoc]

Okay, I understand the system clearly enough, however it seems that it serves no purpose but to replace the standard magic system.

There doesn't seem to be variability, or overcasting involved, for the individual spellcasters. The ability to pump more points to cast metamagic is nice, but do all the base wielders have the same pool of points? It opens the system up for a multitude of class features or feats to boost the points or allow them to be channelled differently.

On the point of the counterspell, wouldn't it require the opposing caster to at least pump as many points as the originator to counter?? Level would not matter a whole lot, but it would balance the equation.. to cancel a 42 point meteor swarm, a counterspell would cost 42 points.. lower level casters could not, mid level would be taxed to do it.. equal levels would think twice, but still have a viable option..

 

[Michael Morris]

Okay, I understand the system clearly enough, however it seems that it serves no purpose but to replace the standard magic system.

And this is a problem.

There doesn't seem to be variability, or overcasting involved, for the individual spellcasters. The ability to pump more points to cast metamagic is nice, but do all the base wielders have the same pool of points?

No. You need to follow the link to the Dusk site and read the first table there. Basically, bards have 2 spell points / level, clerics 4 / level, druids 6 / level (in the revision), wizards 8 / level and sorcerers 12 / level. All casters gain a number of bonus points equal to their casting ability modifier X the highest level spell they can cast (20 points for an 18 intelligence wizard able to cast 5th level spells for example).

It opens the system up for a multitude of class features or feats to boost the points or allow them to be channelled differently.

Yes, it does, and I've begun to explore some of that. But the most basic kernal of the system needs to be balanced and tested before the add ons are brought into the picture.

On the point of the counterspell, wouldn't it require the opposing caster to at least pump as many points as the originator to counter?? Level would not matter a whole lot, but it would balance the equation.. to cancel a 42 point meteor swarm, a counterspell would cost 42 points.. lower level casters could not, mid level would be taxed to do it.. equal levels would think twice, but still have a viable option..

No. Counterspelling is relatively easy. A kid with a well placed rock can counter a 9th level spell if the caster fails his concentration check. Counterspells already have a lot going against them - to use one you have to win initiative and then cast the spell in response. The most basic "counterspell" is 4th level - and it counters the targetted spell - no if's and or buts. This spell and it's kindred help to reinforce the notion that magical spells and their effects are much easier to destroy than to create.

Counterspells provide an obstacle to the would be omnipotent mage getting too big for his briches and trying to wipe out dozens of foes. Even a high level wizard who is faced with multiple blue mages of mid-level will have to be wary of being counterspelled into in-action just like in the MtG card game. Fortunately, most of the counterspells are medium range spells, and many of the offensive spells pack a long range so it is possible to outrange a counterspell barrage.

 

[Oni]

The change to druids seems kind of odd, druids get a lot more special abilities than the cleric, and this change potentiall makes them better healers by virtue of having more spellpoints.

Your purposed changes to wizards also seem a tad odd. It creates extra bookkeeping. It seem weird to be able to run out of spells and still have spell points left, since the spells disappear anyway seems like you may as well use the slot system. Lastly while a sorcerer with counter spell could have pretty much shut down a wizard before now it even easier since they lose the spell when it's cast.


[edit: Also combining the weakness of the slot system (i.e. losing the spell) with the weakness of the spell point system (fewer spells per day, or significantly weaker ones) it's a double whammy against wizards. As you point out under the slot system a wizard would gain the equivalent of a great deal more spell points. I think you may be looking at a significant balance problem here.]

 

[Eldorian]

Well, the problem with converting PHB classes to spell point systems is complex. There are many variables.

What follows is basically me thinking outloud. (well, typing it)

First off, caster level based effects on spells pretty much have to go. You can see this in Psionics, where the only manifester level based effects are duration, and amount of weight with teleport and telekinisis type spells. Spending extra spell points to increase caster level doesn't work too well: not all spells have the same level based variables. The system breaks down when you have similiar spells of different levels. Fireball and cone of cold are good examples. In your system, a 10d6 fireball costs 3+10, and a 10d6 cone of cold is 5+10, costing 2 points for basically what amounts to a 2 higher save DC, which isn't worth it. But the problem with this is that it invalidates the basis for how the spell system works. For example. If magic missle is not increased by caster level, it is a worthless spell for the most part. My suggestion? Steal from Monte Cook!

Give up on spell points, they are neigh impossible to fix. Keep most everything how it is, but instead of fire and forget preparing for the preparing types, they prepare the spells they can cast that day, and then they cast like a sorcerer with those spells. If you give the sorcerer a slightly larger spells known list, and keep the spells per day the same for all people involved, I think it would work out.

If spell points are your heart's desire, then the main part of balancing spell points is that you have to consider exactly how many of what level spells a caster is expected to use per day. So you take what he needs to defeat equal CR with his 3 mates, and times that by 4, since each equal CR encounter is supposed to take 1/4 of his power. (it's 1/5 according to the DMG, but 1/4 makes better math). Lets take a gander at the level 16 wizard with this in mind

It looks like he's supposed to use 1/2 an 8th level spell, 3/4 a 7th and a 6th, and 1 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st.

that gives him 7 spells per encounter. Using the power point system of psionic handbook, that's 50.5 power points. He's assumed to cast 2 spells above level 5. That's 25.5 of his power points. I saw a poll in the general forum that said the average dnd battle was about 4-6 rounds. Assuming one spell a round.. (no haste ) for 5 rounds, thats 25.5 for the first 2 rounds(level 6+ spells), + 9 +7 +5= 46.5 for one combat. Therefore, using the standard psionic power points per spell, and the wizards expected power expendature per battle, he should have 186 power points at level 16. Thats more than a level 20 Psion gets. And all these calculations have been done without bonus spells or power points. If the wizard were to cast only 8th level spells, he could cast 3 per battle, given this amount of power points. So, if we use the power point system from the Psionics, then 3 8th level spells must be equal to approximatly 2 above 6th, a 5th, a 4th, and a 3rd.

If we consider it in pure mass damage (easy to think about, numerical effects) then 3*16d8 (horrid wilting) = 1/2*16d8 + 3/4*14d8 (delayed blast fireball) +3/4*12d6 (chain lighting) + 10d6 (cone of cold) + 8d6(i don't know a good 4th level damager, but here it is) +6d6 (everyone's favorite, fireball)

We'll lable the all level 8s guy as A, and the classical spell list guy as B and assume that the first spell B casts is his best spell he's going to use.

1st round
A= 16d8 = 72
B= 1/2*16d8 + 1/2*14d8= 67.5

2nd round
A= 16d8 = 72, Atotal = 144
B= 1/4*14d8 + 3/4*12d8 =56.25, Btotal = 123.75

3rd round
A= 16d8 = 72, Atotal = 216
B= 10d6 = 35, Btotal = 158.75

4th round
A= 0, Atotal = 216
B = 8d6 = 28, Btotal = 186.75

5th round
A=0, Atotal =216
B=6d6=21, Btotal = 207.75

So you see the problem, the new caster simply out preforms the old one, and the old one was more or less balanced.

A solution, to keep the damage more or less equal, is to reduce the overall power points by more or less a third. We set our new caster so he could afford only 2 8th level spells and a 5th level per battle. Then on round three he'd still have a slight advantage 179 to 158.75, but the 4th and 5th rounds prove the old caster to have more staying power.

This means the new caster needs 39 points per battle, so we multiply by 4 and we get our magic number at 116. Guess what? The psion gets 115! Wizards thinks like me perhaps?


Now the problem with psions is that, since thier powers don't scale with level substantially, the lower level ones SUCK. Magic missile remains useful as a fall back spell forever. Fireball is always good as well. but Whitefire at 5d4 would be cast only to clear rabble. Afterall, burning hands does that much damage!

But letting spells scale with level with a power point system breaks it, because spells such as fireball and magic missle are better or as good as some of the higher level spells that have similiar effects, such as cone of cold and melfs acid arrow. So you get the problem where Fireball is cheaper than a spell that it's just as good as.

Anyways, I'll give it some more thought. Perhaps a better construction of metamagics we can make lower level powers retain use for psions.

Eldorian Antar