duskblade-- too powerful?

[brehobit]

OK,
I know there have been arguments that the duskblade is too powerful here ("Broken"). I generally ignore those comments because I find that WotC has always done a solid job at keeping power levels of the base classes down. Even the PrCs that most people complain about (Radiant Servant etc.) aren't _that_ powerful. And I've found the base classes to either be weak (samuri, scout) or the same (spirit shaman, warmage) as the better base classes (cleric, druid, paladin).

But looking at the duskblade, I just don't see how this thing can be balanced with the other full-BAB classes. Heck, it is a better caster, IMO, than the bard...

For the first few levels it isn't that bad. It has a crazy number of 0-level spells compared to any other caster (8/day for an INT of 14 at first level). But the 1st level spell list isn't too bad (well color spray is a nice spell) and the d8 for hitpoints and light armor keep it from being too crazy in hand-to-hand.

But by 3rd level the duskblade has gotten a bonus feat (combat casting) and can now cast a touch spell and attack as a standard action. At this point, with chill touch on his spell list, the caster is doing an extra d6 on every attack and possibly 1 point of STR damage (Fort save negates the save). I mean he can cast it 5 times/day at it lasts for 3 hits and he can cast it as part of an attack. Really huge for that level.

Come 5th level he's just getting 2nd level spells. But he can quicken 1 spell/day for free. So at 5th level he can "blow his wad" and attack, cast ghoul touch and true strike and power attack (if he has the feat.) This single attack provides +15 to attack, +10 damage (if using a 2-handed weapon) and a Fort save or be paralized. (if you wish to claim that the spells can't be cast without 1 hand free (debated if you can release and grasp the weapon as a free action) then just true stike works pretty well).

At 13th level he can take a full attack (at least 3 attacks) and everyone he hits can get wacked by a vampiric touch. (extra 6d6 damage, I'm not clear if the bonus hitpoints drained stack or not). And he can do this around 8-10 times a day (using 4th level spell slots).

How is this class NOT broken? It has poor skills (both selection and points) and a d8 for hit points. Other than that it seems pretty darn useful in a fight.

 

[shilsen]

But looking at the duskblade, I just don't see how this thing can be balanced with the other full-BAB classes. Heck, it is a better caster, IMO, than the bard...

I think it's one of the more powerful new classes introduced by WotC, but not broken.

But by 3rd level the duskblade has gotten a bonus feat (combat casting) and can now cast a touch spell and attack as a standard action. At this point, with chill touch on his spell list, the caster is doing an extra d6 on every attack and possibly 1 point of STR damage (Fort save negates the save). I mean he can cast it 5 times/day at it lasts for 3 hits and he can cast it as part of an attack. Really huge for that level.

For a big hit on the spot, don't forget Shocking Grasp (+3d6 on one hit at 3rd lvl). Which you can use in the same round as Blade of Blood (swift action). So that's an extra +6d6 dmg on one hit (if you take the 5 pt dmg to make Blade of Blood do +3d6). Personally, I think this benefit is balanced by the fact that you can do it a max of thrice a day, in which case you're using up all of your 1st lvl spells and have only 0th lvl ones left. Compare it to a fighter or barbarian using Power Attack on every attack, or the versatility of an actual 3rd lvl wizard, and it's not that bad.

Come 5th level he's just getting 2nd level spells. But he can quicken 1 spell/day for free. So at 5th level he can "blow his wad" and attack, cast ghoul touch and true strike and power attack (if he has the feat.) This single attack provides +15 to attack, +10 damage (if using a 2-handed weapon) and a Fort save or be paralized. (if you wish to claim that the spells can't be cast without 1 hand free (debated if you can release and grasp the weapon as a free action) then just true stike works pretty well).

Which he can do just 1/day. I think that's an important balancing factor. As wth many classes, the duskblade will be much more effective in a game where there's only a combat or two in a given game day, and much less so in one with multiple encounters.

At 13th level he can take a full attack (at least 3 attacks) and everyone he hits can get wacked by a vampiric touch. (extra 6d6 damage, I'm not clear if the bonus hitpoints drained stack or not). And he can do this around 8-10 times a day (using 4th level spell slots).

This is the level/ability where I think the class has the potential to become a little problematic. Still, when I consider what a 13th lvl barbarian can put out damage-wise or the versatility of a 13th lvl fighter (esp. with the PHB2 feats) or the effectiveness of a 13th lvl cleric or versatility of a 13th lvl wizard, I'm loath to say that it's clearly too far ahead of the power curve.

How is this class NOT broken? It has poor skills (both selection and points) and a d8 for hit points. Other than that it seems pretty darn useful in a fight.

It is. I just don't think it's too useful. IMSNSHO, YMMV, and so on

 

[Masquerade]

I'm not an expert on mechanics by any stretch, but this is my take on the class:

Fighters use feats to attack more frequently, more accurately, and more painfully. Duskblades use spells to accomplish the same. The spells are more potent than the feats, but you don't see fighters running out of high-level feat slots after a couple of encounters.

I have played a duskblade (well, duskblade/totemist) in a one-shot, and I would not think twice about letting one of my players use the class.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm not an expert on mechanics by any stretch, but this is my take on the class:

Fighters use feats to attack more frequently, more accurately, and more painfully. Duskblades use spells to accomplish the same. The spells are more potent than the feats, but you don't see fighters running out of high-level feat slots after a couple of encounters.

I have played a duskblade (well, duskblade/totemist) in a one-shot, and I would not think twice about letting one of my players use the class.

What level did you play the duskblade at? And if you run out of spells in a couple of encounters with the Duskblade, you are being reallly wasteful. Their spellstack is so fat you would have to be activly trying to burn through it. The Tanks will run out of HP before you go dry unless you are playing "Overkill the Mooks!"

The Duskblade really is severely limited in spell selection.

I too feel the 13 level ability might be a scale tipper though. shocking grasp and vampiric touch are the big ones that worry me. While the temp HP of VT may not stack depending on the DM, a 1st level spell dumping 5d6 on each swing feels too damn potent.

 

[Victim]

The full round action version of the Arcane Channeling is interesting. Melee characters, lacking AoE effects, have tremendous incentives to focus all their attacks on one guy so that he dies faster. That's why Whirlwind Attack normally sucks; sure, you may do more total damage with it, but none of the enemies are dropping so you take many more hits. But some of the PHB2 feats and abilities seem designed to incentivise spreading attacks around. The Duskblade can hit with his channeled spell more than once - if he attacks multiple guys. Two weapon Rend is also once per opponent. So that ability at least seems balanced since it increases the power of a normally poor tactic.

Like many caster classes, the Duskblade gains a big boost with only 1 or 2 encounters, since they can freely use up spells for 1 shot damaging effects.

Also, the class doesn't add that much damage as it levels. A 5th level duskblade can add like 5d6 with a channeled spell. A 10th level duskblade is still probably adding 5d6, he just gets a side benefit and can do it more often. If the class is overpowered at all, it's probably only at low levels.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Concerning Arcane Channelling (full attack), it reads:

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharages the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would normally last longer than 1 round.

To me, the wording of "each target you hit" means that the spell will not affect one person more than once. In other words, in order to get the full effect, you have to hit a different target creature with each iterative attack (or off hand attack). Even if you use shocking grasp and hit the same guy with six attacks that round, shocking grasp will still only affect them once. That's how I told my group I was going to run it.

 

[Stalker0]

Which he can do just 1/day. I think that's an important balancing factor. As wth many classes, the duskblade will be much more effective in a game where there's only a combat or two in a given game day, and much less so in one with multiple encounters.

See, this is where I disagree. Well yes, the duskblade will of course do better with 1 or 2 combats, he's not doing a crappy job the rest of the time. He still has good saves, and a full BAB, so with a nice shiny sword he can still do almost as much damage as a fighter.

 

[shilsen]

See, this is where I disagree. Well yes, the duskblade will of course do better with 1 or 2 combats, he's not doing a crappy job the rest of the time. He still has good saves, and a full BAB, so with a nice shiny sword he can still do almost as much damage as a fighter.

I never said he can't do nearly as much damage the rest of the time (though a fighter using the PHB2 feats will have a decent lead there, I think). The fighter's big advantage isn't so much in damage-dealing as in versatility, IMO. The duskblade's primary focus is on damage, which is spell dependent. The fighter not only does decent damage (though not pulling out the big hits like the duskblade does with its spell + melee combos) but its feats give it mastery of combat maneuvers, defensive capability, and other options that the more focused duskblade lacks.

 

[RigaMortus2]

To me, the wording of "each target you hit" means that the spell will not affect one person more than once. In other words, in order to get the full effect, you have to hit a different target creature with each iterative attack (or off hand attack). Even if you use shocking grasp and hit the same guy with six attacks that round, shocking grasp will still only affect them once. That's how I told my group I was going to run it.

This is how I read it too...

 

[brehobit]

I never said he can't do nearly as much damage the rest of the time (though a fighter using the PHB2 feats will have a decent lead there, I think). The fighter's big advantage isn't so much in damage-dealing as in versatility, IMO. The duskblade's primary focus is on damage, which is spell dependent. The fighter not only does decent damage (though not pulling out the big hits like the duskblade does with its spell + melee combos) but its feats give it mastery of combat maneuvers, defensive capability, and other options that the more focused duskblade lacks.

Well...

With chill touch, you are basically always going to have +1d6 damage and 1 point str damage (save for the str damage). At pretty much any point past 3rd level you only really need to cast it once per fight. And as casting it is often free (maybe losing the option to charge), it is pretty much free damage. So if you want a slow-and-steady class, you can have it. Throw in the quicked true strike (icky if you have power attack) and things get ugly once or twice a day in addition. And frankly, ghoul touch, vampiric touch, and even touch of fatigue are pretty nice.

And as of 13th level, you are going to have a very hard time running out of spells (~28-30 spell slots). And even the lowly shocking grasp is doing 5d6 to every target. 5d6 is pretty nice...

I am starting to buy that the class isn't _way_ over the top. But it has a lot of flexiblity in "blowing the wad" vs. slow and steady. It does both as well as the classes that specialize in one or the other (fighter vs. wizard).