Duskblade with a spellbook

[irdeggman]

I can't see anything about that in the PHB but it kinda makes sense...

I don't really understand why that is (except to prevent everyone from carrying around a book of scrolls as my player intends)

The magical writing explain how to draw in the energy (whatever it is) and direct it in the form of the spell (a projectile in the case of Magic Missile and Fireball), but if you have deciphered the Wizards writing then you can perform the somatic, verbal and, if necessary, material components...why can't you use the Spellbook to cast spells (providing you have appropriate spell slots left)

From PHB pg 178

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does
not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows
the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as
explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a
scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use
the scroll (see the information on scrolls in the Dungeon Master’s
Guide).

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already
knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation
success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in
the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from
another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a
Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the
check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat
the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she
has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare
the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However,
as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher
the writing.)

From SRD (also DMG pg 213)

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does

Note that in order to cast a spell it either must be via using a spell slot (prepared or spontaneous) and the other prerequisites must be met (rested, etc.)

A scroll is a spell completion item (that it is mostly completed and only the finishing touches remain to cast it - all xp and material components are already paid in the making of the scroll).

A spell book is magical writing but is not a spell completion item.

 

[rgard]

I partially ported in 1e spell book rules to my 3.5 game. I don't have any issue with wizard pcs using another wizard's spell book to prepare their spells. I don't let them cast from the book though.

I agree with the others that there is an issue with UMD and the player's plans. That said, you can HR this issue any way you want, it's your campaign. If you really want to let him try this with UMD, I would have the spell consumed out of the spell book like a scroll when cast. Also, I would limit him to the max level wizard spell he can cast to the max level of Duskblade spell he can cast. Spells from levels higher than he can cast could have a spell failure chance with dire consequences if failed. Even with the risks you may (well, probably will) find that the pc is too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party.

If it was my campaign, I would suggest to the player that he multi-class between Duskblade and Wizard, do a level of Spellsword then go with the Ultimate Magus PrC. He can accomplish most of his character concept with those classes without potentially unbalancing the game.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Omegaxicor]

My second post seems to have been misinterpreted, I understand from the first poster that a spell book is not a scroll (kinda the difference between a manual of explosives and a bomb missing the fuse (UMD is adding the fuse...which any idiot can do)) but just casting the spells from it using his resources

It can expand his spell list in which he derives spells known as a Duskblade if he can understand it, but he is still restricted by what he can cast.

But that is what he wants, like I said above "If he has spell slots remaining" scrolls don't use spell slots

He can't create one though, so he is really dependent at what the DM will drop. However, how he got it in the first place is still mystery. Plus, there is still the possibility of in cahoots with a wizard, though that might be just good teamwork.

I hadn't thought of that (I assumed he killed the wizard and stole it)

I agree with the others that there is an issue with UMD and the player's plans. That said, you can HR this issue any way you want, it's your campaign. If you really want to let him try this with UMD, I would have the spell consumed out of the spell book like a scroll when cast. Also, I would limit him to the max level wizard spell he can cast to the max level of Duskblade spell he can cast. Spells from levels higher than he can cast could have a spell failure chance with dire consequences if failed. Even with the risks you may (well, probably will) find that the pc is too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party.

I never said anything about casting above his caster level, yes he would be for example he would KNOW fireball at level 1 but be unable to cast it until (I think 3 but I don't have the book to hand)

Note that in order to cast a spell it either must be via using a spell slot (prepared or spontaneous) and the other prerequisites must be met (rested, etc.)

A scroll is a spell completion item (that it is mostly completed and only the finishing touches remain to cast it - all xp and material components are already paid in the making of the scroll).

A spell book is magical writing but is not a spell completion item.

1) I misunderstood what you meant before I understand now
2) This makes sense, I forgot the whole "Spell completion Item" part, the scroll is used up afterwards because the spell energy that infused it is lost, I was wondering why the scroll could not be used again but that makes sense

So everyone agrees that a Duskblade who deciphers a spell book just expands his spells known list? does that mean he can sell the spell book after he has deciphered it? (I will rule he needs to keep it and read it every night to be familiar enough with the spells to cast them the next day, kinda like the Spirit Shaman does, from Complete Divine I think)

 

[Empirate]

So everyone agrees that a Duskblade who deciphers a spell book just expands his spells known list? does that mean he can sell the spell book after he has deciphered it? (I will rule he needs to keep it and read it every night to be familiar enough with the spells to cast them the next day, kinda like the Spirit Shaman does, from Complete Divine I think)

Most certainly not. Spellbooks are not usable by Duskblades, period. You need to be a Wizard (or, granted, a Chameleon) to use one. Even if you can decipher a spell in a spellbook as a Duskblade, it doesn't help you, because your casting mechanism is totally different and doesn't rely on a spellbook at all.

To "know" a spell is not the same to a Duskblade as it is to a Wizard. A Wizard is a little genius and can make do with the notes and scribbles he can put on a very few pages in his spellbook. A Duskblade (spontaneous caster) needs a much more intimate and intuitive knowledge of his spells to count them as known - hence his low maximum, which is level-dependent. Unlike the Wizard, who can just make some notes and learn every Sor/Wiz spell in existence, a Duskblade's mind can only hold so much spell knowledge.

I strongly advise against allowing your player to do what he's about to. Spontaneous casting has great perks, but also some obvious flaws, the most important one of which is limited spells known.

 

[rgard]

So everyone agrees that a Duskblade who deciphers a spell book just expands his spells known list? does that mean he can sell the spell book after he has deciphered it? (I will rule he needs to keep it and read it every night to be familiar enough with the spells to cast them the next day, kinda like the Spirit Shaman does, from Complete Divine I think)

No, sorry, not in agreement, but if you allow it please do let us know how things turn out.

 

[Omegaxicor]

OK I was wondering that, IF everyone was in agreement, some are not.

I understand the game mechanics behind it (Duskblade with every Wiz/Sor spell is a bit overpowered) but I understand what you mean Empirate the Wizard simple preforms the actions whereas the Duskblade needs to know what actions mean and how to manipulate the magic.

 

[Shin Okada]

A Wizard can only use his spell slots for preparing/casting Sorcerer/Wizard spells (and only spells in his spellbook or in a borrowed spellbook).

A Duskblade can only use his spell slots for casting Duskblade spells (and only spells he knows).

A Cleric can only use his spell slots for casting Cleric spells.

All of them has spell slots. And all of them casts spells. But they don't share the same mechanic for casting spells nor share the same class-spell list.

A spellcasting class's description says that a character of that class can cast that class's spells and that is the limit.

It is simple.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

So, since we've ruled out a Duskblade using a wizard's spellbook, are you or your player interested in seeking other methods of expanding his spell knowledge? Because that's a seperate issue, and the Duskblade Handbook has good tips.

 

[emoplato]

OK I was wondering that, IF everyone was in agreement, some are not.

I understand the game mechanics behind it (Duskblade with every Wiz/Sor spell is a bit overpowered) but I understand what you mean Empirate the Wizard simple preforms the actions whereas the Duskblade needs to know what actions mean and how to manipulate the magic.

What I mean Omegaxicor is that he can expand his list in which he chooses to memorize for his spells known. While it doesn't say explicitly the Duskblade is a spontaneous caster of sorts because it says you need not prepare spells. It also states you memorize spells and can choose to forget some for others at each level, like a sorcerer. Unlike a sorcerer or wizard a Duskblade has limited list of class spells to derive his spells known from. A successful deciphering of the spellbook would expand that list not his actual spells known.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Duskblade already has full BAB, decent HD, two good saves, nice class features, decent proficiencies which improve with level, and a full caster level (though only up to 5th level spells) with up to TEN(!!!) spell slots per level. Its limited spell list is pretty much the only thing keeping it from becoming totally completely broken.

Not only is this not allowed by the rules (as others have explained), it would be an incredibly bad idea to houserule it to be so.