Dying to Know

[Kitirat]

OK have run a lot of 4th now including a 20 hour session this weekend (home brew) and we still had a few issues with dying I would love to have WOTC answer for KotS that I will run later:

A) ok when at 0 or less, you roll a 9 or less and you get a death "mark", three and your out. 10-19 you don;t get worse, don;t get better. But for a 20 what happens? Have like 4 different written options from the various sources I have found:
1) Nothing special happens, no death mark is gained.
2) If you have not used your second wind, you can and you
jump to a quater of your hitpoints (PHBlite).
3) You stablize (can not remember the source).
4) You jump to a 4th of your health as if you used a healing surge.

I have used 4 since it was the first I had seen and it has made the game the most exciting (more "WOOT!" heard from this rule then any other and keeps players whose characters are down "in the game"). However, knowing the offical rule would be great.

B) Temp hit points and negatives. So your at -1 and bleeding and get 2 temp are you:
1) still unconscious but can take 2 points before going further into
negatives. you roll for death each round.
2) up at 1 hit point (you gained 2 so you go up two as though
healed 2).
3) conscious at 2 hit points, but still bleeding to death since your
real hit points are negative.
4) at 2 hit points, as temps (in this case temps are considered
healing) and always start at 0 (this also makes the at-will
sacred flame massively powerful).

I have used 3 for whatever reason.

c) As for C but you are at -8 when you get the 2 hit points.

1) still unconscious but can take 2 points before going further into
negatives. you roll for death each round.
2) up at -6 hit points (you gained 2 so you go up two as though
healed 2).
3) conscious at 2 hit points, but still bleeding to death since your
real hit points are negative.
4) at 2 hit points, as temps (in this case temps are considered
healing) and always start at 0 (this also makes the at-will
sacred flame massively powerful).

I again have used 3.

Anyone know the official ruling on these?

Thanks,
Ken

 

[Herodotus]

My understanding is that a natural 20 doesn't do anything different from a 10 on a saving throw, but your way sounds like it's more fun.

I'm pretty sure that you can't use temporary hit points to raise someone back to positive hit points, but I haven't seen an official ruling.

 

[Kitirat]

My understanding is that a natural 20 doesn't do anything different from a 10 on a saving throw, but your way sounds like it's more fun.

I'm pretty sure that you can't use temporary hit points to raise someone back to positive hit points, but I haven't seen an official ruling.

Well it is not "my way" It was on a quick rules sheet I got around the time of DDxp. It has been an awesome addition to my games though as the players always have the sense there is hope. I love the idea that players can "Boramir" and get up after being knocked down. Also really improves humans as a race with a 19-20 giving the pop up.

 

[ZetaStriker]

I've seen it said that rolling a 20 on a regular saving throw clears ALL status effects on the character, not just the one being rolled for. I think I've seen either the stabilize or healing surge rule for a 20 when dying as well, but can't remember which or where.

 

[Irda Ranger]

We know that the rules were in flux right up until the end. Some things have changed even since DDXP. I think we have to assume that any conflict between KotS and prior sources (such as the PHB Lite) must be resolved in favor or KotS (unless a WotC staffer or someone with a PHB (Morrus?) says otherwise). That being said ...

A) ok when at 0 or less, you roll a 9 or less and you get a death "mark", three and your out. 10-19 you don;t get worse, don;t get better. But for a 20 what happens?

1) Nothing special happens, no death mark is gained.

This is the KotS rule. Per above, I think we have to assume this is the official result.

B) Temp hit points and negatives. So your at -1 and bleeding and get 2 temp are you:
1) still unconscious but can take 2 points before going further into
negatives. you roll for death each round.
2) up at 1 hit point (you gained 2 so you go up two as though
healed 2).
3) conscious at 2 hit points, but still bleeding to death since your
real hit points are negative.
4) at 2 hit points, as temps (in this case temps are considered
healing) and always start at 0 (this also makes the at-will
sacred flame massively powerful).

I have used 3 for whatever reason.

Real answer: no idea. Hit Points, Healing and Dying (KotS, p.12) does not address temporary HP.

Best guess: I'd go with #4. A grant of temporary HP to a Neg HP character sounds like Healing the Dying (KotS, p.12) to me. Note that in the Healing in Combat section it notes in the last sentence that "some powers don't require a character to spend a healing surge at all." Sacred Flame could be an example of this.

Of course, you lose those temp HP eventually, so I'd make sure you recover more HP by some other means ASAP.

By the way, the Half-Elf Cleric pre-gen's Sacred Flame grants 3 temporary HP, not 2.

c) As for C but you are at -8 when you get the 2 hit points.

1) still unconscious but can take 2 points before going further into
negatives. you roll for death each round.
2) up at -6 hit points (you gained 2 so you go up two as though
healed 2).
3) conscious at 2 hit points, but still bleeding to death since your
real hit points are negative.
4) at 2 hit points, as temps (in this case temps are considered
healing) and always start at 0 (this also makes the at-will
sacred flame massively powerful).

I again have used 3.

Anyone know the official ruling on these?

Thanks,
Ken

No, I don't know the official ruling. I'd still go with #4 though, as Healing the Dying seems like the most applicable rule. My ruling for the loss of those temp HP (assuming no further healing occurs before their loss) is that you drop exactly to 0 and begin making Saves vs. Death again.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I've been playing it this way:

Nat 20 means you can activate your second wind if you still have it. I'm pretty sure this WAS the rule, but it might not still be in effect. I'm pretty sure Ari game some sort of support to this at some point.

I'm totally sure (though I forget who or when) that a designer stated that temp HP do not work on the unconscious at all.

Fitz

 

[Victoly]

From a purely "flavour-text" perspective, I view temporary hit points as a bit of a morale boost, a little extra adrenaline to help get you through the fight. This interpretation jives pretty well with the "abstract" nature of hit points that 4E is endorsing, and it would also mean that temporary hit points would likely have no effect on the unconscious and dying. There might be rare situations where something deep in your subconscious gives you the motivation to get back up again, but it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would be inspired by a cleric or warlord yelling at you.

 

[Kitirat]

We know that the rules were in flux right up until the end. Some things have changed even since DDXP. I think we have to assume that any conflict between KotS and prior sources (such as the PHB Lite) must be resolved in favor or KotS (unless a WotC staffer or someone with a PHB (Morrus?) says otherwise). That being said ...


This is the KotS rule. Per above, I think we have to assume this is the official result.



Real answer: no idea. Hit Points, Healing and Dying (KotS, p.12) does not address temporary HP.

Best guess: I'd go with #4. A grant of temporary HP to a Neg HP character sounds like Healing the Dying (KotS, p.12) to me. Note that in the Healing in Combat section it notes in the last sentence that "some powers don't require a character to spend a healing surge at all." Sacred Flame could be an example of this.

Of course, you lose those temp HP eventually, so I'd make sure you recover more HP by some other means ASAP.

By the way, the Half-Elf Cleric pre-gen's Sacred Flame grants 3 temporary HP, not 2.



No, I don't know the official ruling. I'd still go with #4 though, as Healing the Dying seems like the most applicable rule. My ruling for the loss of those temp HP (assuming no further healing occurs before their loss) is that you drop exactly to 0 and begin making Saves vs. Death again.

Hope the KotS for dying is not the offical rule, if it is , that sucks, much less cool then a nat 20 doing something good for you.

The DDxp pregen heals 2 with sacred flame, he is used probably 4/1 so far, just a far superior character in my player oppinion.

4 works well for me as well.

 

[psionotic]

I've seen it said that rolling a 20 on a regular saving throw clears ALL status effects on the character, not just the one being rolled for. I think I've seen either the stabilize or healing surge rule for a 20 when dying as well, but can't remember which or where.

I like this rule, personally, although I'm pretty sure its only for the minis game.

 

[Jack Colby]

I thought there was no negative HP counting anymore?