E.G.G. On Realism & Combat

  • Thread starter Thread starter PaulofCthulhu
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D&D today has become such a mess because so many people are trying to get it to be too many things and its core structure which is designed for simplicity, just can't handle being pulled in so many directions.

I don't agree that modern D&D is a "mess". I think the latest edition excels because it returns focus to the core gameplay of D&D - adventuring, instead of trying to account for so many different directions. The gameplay expectations of the modern gaming audience have shifted to a more action-oriented game, certainly, but one that is still, at its core, about adventuring and increasing prowess. This shift exists throughout pop-culture, just compare the pacing of standard movie fare today to the standard fare of the 70s. Heck, compare the pacing and structure of the commercials of today to that of the 70s. Whether this is good or bad (or neither) is a topic for another time and another forum, but it is what it is.

As for EGGs statement, I largely agree with it. In my experience, any call to increase something as tenuous as "realism" in a fantasy tabletop game falls victim to a butterfly effect of increasing complication. If you make one nod to realism, you must make others, otherwise the logic for the first change is invalidated.
 

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I agree with the letter!

Irony 1: The probelmatic bits of AD&D added to bring in combat realism...fortunately, we ended up ignoring most of them.

Irony 2:How deadly AD&D combat could be. Glad to see 4E finally go it right :p
 

His hyperbole is pointless and weakens the already weak argument he was making in the letter.

I will agree that Gygax wasn't/isn't the end-all, be-all of gaming wisdom. I'll agree that he gets a bit hyperbolic in that letter.

I am not at all sure the base argument is particularly weak, however.

The wizard can throw fireballs and lightning bolts - how those are handled is in no way, shape, or form realistic. That is going to put a limit on how realistic the rest of the game can plausibly be handled without creating issues at the discontinuities where the realism and fantasy don't match. The greater the mismatch, the greater the issues will be.
 

I no longer talk of games in terms of "realistic", those that crunch it out tend to end up unplayable. What I prefer is "believability": the game world reacts in a logical manner according to its rules.
 

It sounds like EGG was parying the old "How does your character survive if they're tied up so they can't move and a dragon breathes on them? They survive thanks to HP, but it doesn't make any sense! HP is bad!" argument.

IMO, combat realism needs to take a long walk off a short pier. It's what I struggle with more than most other aspects of the new edition. "I need to know exactly where you are in relation to every other creature, exactly which rules elements are affecting you, exactly the number and kind of bonuses and penalties they give you, and then and only then can I make an attack roll."

There's many who love it as "strategic," but I prefer "cinematic" over "strategic" (not that I'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here). What was once the art of spicing up die rolls with a description became, beginning in 3e, and worsened in 4e, the science of adding +1's.
 

Are you quite certain the logic mishap is happening where you think it is?

In original D&D, gaining levels meant more than just getting better at combat. Gaining fame and fortune was a reward and so was getting to become a leader of your own keep, tower, temple, or thieves guild. In fact, only one of the three original classes was combat focused. When the thief was added as a fourth class then the combat focus dropped to 25% of the available classes.
Excellent point. I believe a lot of players have forgotten what original D&D and Ad&d were like to play. Combat was to be avoided or at least stacked in your favor. Trying to level by combat alone would be a fruitless and dangerous undertaking as monsters gave very little xp. A kobold or goblin was only worth 5xp. Were as a nice gem could be worth 5 or 10 times that amount.

Other game systems are designed to handle detailed tactical combat much better than D&D ever could. If heavy combat is what is called for grab a tactically rich system and go to it.
Like Rolemaster which most people in the groups i played in switched to when they got bored with D&D

D&D today has become such a mess because so many people are trying to get it to be too many things and its core structure which is designed for simplicity, just can't handle being pulled in so many directions.
I heartily agree.
 

Dungeons & Dragons is a fantasy game, of course, and this most reasonably indicates that statements regarding "realism" in a game must go out the window.

I think it's important to remember the context in which the word 'realism' is being used here, back in White Dwarf 6 in the late 70s or early 80s.

D&D was (and is) a game of goblins and devils and wizards, so clearly in one sense 'realism' - in the sense of matching our real world - is a nonsense, and that's what Gary seems to be saying.

And it's probably fair to say that the comparison is being made with historical wargames where often the aim of the rules is to produce historically plausible results with plausible casualty levels in a plausible timescale.

But in another sense, D&D was very, very keen on 'realism' because it stressed internal consistency. The original DMG makes a claim that it is not attempting to 'simulate' anything, then gives endless charts on how much different castle sections cost, how long they take to build, the precise ranges and effects and pirces of magic items, the cost of retainers. It instructs the DM to keep an accurate track of the passage of time... the list of things it details in an attempt to simulate goes on and on.

So I'd say that in-game realism, as in consistent simulation in the game world, has always been a big deal in D&D and was the de facto norm for RPGS for a long time, but this isn't what EGG means by 'realism' in his letter.
 

The wizard can throw fireballs and lightning bolts - how those are handled is in no way, shape, or form realistic. That is going to put a limit on how realistic the rest of the game can plausibly be handled without creating issues at the discontinuities where the realism and fantasy don't match. The greater the mismatch, the greater the issues will be.

Agreed 100%. ;)
 

I no longer talk of games in terms of "realistic", those that crunch it out tend to end up unplayable. What I prefer is "believability": the game world reacts in a logical manner according to its rules.

Actually, the 3rd edition rules were surprisingly realistic, as long as you realized that although they supported 1st through 20th levels in actual fact 5th to 6th level represented the peak of normal human capability. As in Conan or Aragorn would be 5th or 6th level characters. That you could go on to level your characters much higher than that, well into the super-human range, doesn't mean the rules themselves were necessarily unrealistic.

But I agree with your point that 'realistic' as a term to describe any fantasy role-playing system is useless. I think that the more appropriate distinction is whether the mechanics are associated or disassociated with player decisions. In other words, how much of what your character does is specifically associated with decisions you as a player make, and how much of it is simply resolved by an abstract dice roll. In 1st edition, with combat rounds lasting 10 minutes according to some interpretations of the rules, almost the entire combat is a disassociated mechanic. Your 1 attack and damage roll represent a whole series of actual game-world maneuvers, faints, thrusts, parries, slashes, and so on. On the other hand, trap detection and disarming was almost 100% associated. Your character would not do anything you as a player did not tell him to do, so if you didn't know, in real life as a player, how to detect and disarm a trap, or where to search for something hidden in a room, the character wouldn't know either.

It's interesting to me how D&D has evolved to make combat more and more associated, with all different kinds of feats or powers or techniques or what-have-you with specific rules, modifiers, and mechanics designed to make combat an exercise in tactical system mastery... and yet at the same time has dissassociated room searching and trap detecting and disarming. Whereas before, battling the goblin was a simple matter of rolling a couple die a few times and letting the DM provide fluff details, now battling the goblin is broken down into 5 second rounds with pages worth of options for unique attack maneuvers. Now, to find and disarm a trap, the rogue makes his search check and then his disarm check, and the DM fills in the fluff details. Before, finding the trap meant you had to interrogate the DM on the details of every wall, floor, and ceiling, prod ahead with your ten foot pole, spill water on the ground, throw out chalk powder, check for scuff marks or strange breezes, and any of a million other things that were clues to a nearby trap or secret entrance or hidden treasure.

To me, it's all fun. I favor associated mechanics in all cases, whether its combat or exploration, or even role-playing. Resolving any complex situation with a single dice roll that's meant to account for a whole series of possible actions separates a player from their character and takes me out of the moment.
 

Actually, the 3rd edition rules were surprisingly realistic, as long as you realized that although they supported 1st through 20th levels in actual fact 5th to 6th level represented the peak of normal human capability. As in Conan or Aragorn would be 5th or 6th level characters. That you could go on to level your characters much higher than that, well into the super-human range, doesn't mean the rules themselves were necessarily unrealistic.

:confused: Are you being serious? If 5th to 6th level represents the peak of "reality" then some of us should be able to throw a fireball by now. :p
 

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