E-Tools: Anyone Sharing Custom Files?

[JRRNeiklot]

Piracy is theft.

Victor

No. It is not. If I download, say a copy of the Player's Handbook, I dare you to come hold the merchandise stolen in your hands. Even if I print it out, you can't do it. I paid for the paper I printed it on, so that belongs to me. The fact is, I didn't steal anything, because it only exists as a bunch of zeroes and ones streaming across my phone line.

It is a violation of copyright, and thus, illegal, but it is not theft. So I denyed them a sale, so what? There are many ways to do that that don't involve theft. If I had purchased Gurps, Vampire, or Martha Stewart's memoires instead, I would have denied them a sale. That does not mean I stole from WOTC.

 

[Vpenman]

No. It is not. If I download, say a copy of the Player's Handbook, I dare you to come hold the merchandise stolen in your hands. Even if I print it out, you can't do it. I paid for the paper I printed it on, so that belongs to me. The fact is, I didn't steal anything, because it only exists as a bunch of zeroes and ones streaming across my phone line.

It is a violation of copyright, and thus, illegal, but it is not theft. So I denyed them a sale, so what? There are many ways to do that that don't involve theft. If I had purchased Gurps, Vampire, or Martha Stewart's memoires instead, I would have denied them a sale. That does not mean I stole from WOTC.

You have done worse than steal an object. You have stolen a person's labor, ideas, and creativity.

Paper practically grows on trees. It is what goes on it (and I am not talking about ink) that makes it valuable.

Similarly, it is not a series of 0s and 1s that make software, it is the knowledge, brain power, and just hard work that produces something that the dishonest find worth stealing.

Denying someone a sale is not the same as taking their work without justly compensating them for it.

Is this really too complicated for you to understand, or is it just the convenient blinders that self interest provides?

By the way, I really admire the courage and honesty of those who post opinions under an alias.

Victor

 

[JRRNeiklot]

You have done worse than steal an object. You have stolen a person's labor, ideas, and creativity.

Paper practically grows on trees. It is what goes on it (and I am not talking about ink) that makes it valuable.

Similarly, it is not a series of 0s and 1s that make software, it is the knowledge, brain power, and just hard work that produces something that the dishonest find worth stealing.

Denying someone a sale is not the same as taking their work without justly compensating them for it.

Is this really too complicated for you to understand, or is it just the convenient blinders that self interest provides?

By the way, I really admire the courage and honesty of those who post opinions under an alias.

Victor

All of the above you mention, knowledge, creativity, etc, are ephemeral and cannot be stolen. It's like stealing the wind.

And, if you want details about me, , look in my profile, I hide it from no one.
Your profile, however, I notice contains nothing. Funny you should say I hide behind an alias.


I'm not defending piracy. It is illegal, and those who practice it should be prosecuted. For copyright violation, not theft.

 

[rook111]

You Know when I stated this Thread I was just wondering if anyone else had any thing to share that they had Input into the Computer for this program. At the Time I hadn't really looked at the CMP Site, I hadn't visited the CMP Forums and My Comments weren't meant as a knock at CMP. It was just the general statment of my feelings at the time. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

As for theft or Piracy or what ever you want to call it I don't advocate it and there is no argument which can Make it an ok practice.

My comment about the Community was about the overall Larger E-Tools Community which apparently doesn't exist or at least I can't find it (except for the CMP Forums of course). I fail to Understand how when all we had was Core Rules and Core Rules II for AD&D it was fine for US the community to input the material and then share it with anyone who wanted it but now that its 3E and E-tools it can only be Distributed thrugh an athuorized outlet and must be purchased (BTW that isn't a problem for me I have since learning of CMP bought the data sets I wanted and will likly buy more as they become available.) from said company.

Just seems sad to me for some reason, Thats all, see ya.

 

[DaveStebbins]

No. It is not. If I download, say a copy of the Player's Handbook, I dare you to come hold the merchandise stolen in your hands. The fact is, I didn't steal anything, because it only exists as a bunch of zeroes and ones streaming across my phone line.

That's not right. That's not even wrong.

Saying it isn't real because it is just data on your hard drive doesn't wash. Is a pirated movie not a real thing because it exists only as data on a DVD or on the tape in a VHS cartridge? Is all commercial software not real?

It is a violation of copyright, and thus, illegal, but it is not theft.

I'll ask again, if you are in possession of a commercially available product, and you didn't pay for it, how is that not theft?

 

[DMFTodd]

A collection of replies:

If I create my own files of OGC and posted them on kazaa is that theft as well?

It is not necessarily theft, but it is a violation of copyright and thus illegal.

You're allowed to distribute OGC material. That's the purpose behind OGC. As long as you follow the OGC license, then distributing those files on Kazaa would be perfectly legal. Just like distributing OGC content on RPGNow, a website, or by photocopying is legal.

Is this really too complicated for you to understand, or is it just the convenient blinders that self interest provides?

You guys are arguing definitions. JRRNeiklot is arguing the legal defnition. Legally, taking copyrighted material is copyright infringement, it's not *legally* theft. The guy with the Oscar screening tapes wasn't arrested for theft. He was arrested for copyright infringement.

Vpenman is arguing the common definition of the word "theft". Is the legal offense of copyright infringement an act of theft? Sure.

You're both right.

it was fine for US the community to input the material and then share it with anyone who wanted it but now that its 3E and E-tools

It was fine to do it in 3.0 as well. It wasn't until PCGen decided to go OGL that it stopped happening.

Near as I can tell, and my opinion is worth a rat's fart, it's still OK to do. PCGen did it for a long time. They claimed fair use under copyright law. Wizards never complained during that long time. PCGen never received a Cease & Desist order.

So it's been done in the past and near as I can tell no one ever objected. I see no reason why it couldn't be done today.

 

[Glyfair]

I fail to Understand how when all we had was Core Rules and Core Rules II for AD&D it was fine for US the community to input the material and then share it with anyone who wanted it but now that its 3E and E-tools it can only be Distributed thrugh an athuorized outlet and must be purchased (BTW that isn't a problem for me I have since learning of CMP bought the data sets I wanted and will likly buy more as they become available.) from said company.

You'll find that the internet is a different place now than when the Core Rules products were out. At the time, when you made a copy and shared it, a few gaming groups could make use of it. Now, if you make a copy and share it, it's probable a majority of gaming groups can make use of it (or something close).

The number of people who can, and do, access the internet has grown significantly. The people who use it, also use it more often. It's a simple matter that it's a larger audience out there.

So, before if you created a data set for a product (let's say the Forgotten Realms base set) and share it, a few sales could be lost. Now if you create a data set and share it, many sales could be lost.

I also suspect that the reason you didn't see data sets created and sold for Core Rules is because it wasn't profitable. There wasn't a large enough audience on the internet to make a profit and sales through stores would have too many logistical problems to be profitable. Now, it is large enough to be profitable. Plus, technological breakthroughs have made it practical to sell larger products because of increased download speeds (remember the standard when Core Rules 2.0 was released was 14,400 or slower).

I strongly suspect that there are many more concerns about copyright violations, even without discussing the internet directly, because of the expansion of the internet. File sharing has seriously increased the concern because it means many more people can possess a product without paying for it.

 

[herald]

All of the above you mention, knowledge, creativity, etc, are ephemeral and cannot be stolen. It's like stealing the wind.

And, if you want details about me, , look in my profile, I hide it from no one.
Your profile, however, I notice contains nothing. Funny you should say I hide behind an alias.


I'm not defending piracy. It is illegal, and those who practice it should be prosecuted. For copyright violation, not theft.

It's a form of theft and I've asked lawyers about it. A criminal lawyer as a matter of fact. let's just let this go.

 

[Vpenman]

All of the above you mention, knowledge, creativity, etc, are ephemeral and cannot be stolen. It's like stealing the wind...
.

Of course what I actually said was "You have stolen a person's labor, ideas, and creativity."

Let's say you have a job. Pretty much each weekday you work at that job. You do that not because you would rather be working than doing anything else you could do. You do that because you need to work to earn an honest living.

Now let's say your employer is, well let's call him a "pirate" (so as not to offend anyone). This "pirate" had no intention of paying you for your work. Rather, he intends to enjoy the fruits of your labor without paying you for them.

Payday comes around, you get a paycheck, but it bounces. You try to collect from your "pirate" employer, but he is no where to be found.

Was this illegal? Certainly, as the "pirate" never intended to pay you, that is fraud and illegal.

Was it immoral? Not according to "JRRNeiklot". Apparently, since what was taken from you was not something a person can hold in his hands (the bank did return that bounced check to you), this isn't theft. It's not even wrong.

Victor

 

[Vpenman]

You Know when I stated this Thread I was just wondering if anyone else had any thing to share that they had Input into the Computer for this program...

My comment about the Community was about the overall Larger E-Tools Community which apparently doesn't exist or at least I can't find it (except for the CMP Forums of course). I fail to Understand how when all we had was Core Rules and Core Rules II for AD&D it was fine for US the community to input the material and then share it with anyone who wanted it but now that its 3E and E-tools it can only be Distributed thrugh an athuorized outlet and must be purchased (BTW that isn't a problem for me I have since learning of CMP bought the data sets I wanted and will likly buy more as they become available.) from said company.

Just seems sad to me for some reason, Thats all, see ya.

I believe there are a number of fundamental differences between E-Tools and the Core Rules programs that account for this.

First, the E-Tools community is a fraction of the size of the Core Rules community.

Second, E-Tools does not lend itself to sharing data. There is no built in way to do that and even E-Tools Helper is not as user friendly as the import and export tools built into the Core Rules programs and which were designed to promote such sharing.

Third, it is much more difficult to create custom data with E-Tools than it was with the Core Rules. The Core Rules custom data creation tools were designed to be used by the casual user. Creating custom data with E-Tools pretty much requires some proficiency with Access.

Fourth, the Core Rules programs were designed to promote data sharing. It was intended that players send their characters to their DMs and the DMs could send treasures, maps, etc. to the players. It was also designed to allow people in different gaming groups to easily share their work with one another. This was expected to make the program a more attractive product and to grow the AD&D community.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, there were never any intentions to sell a series of data sets. Having such sales creates a fundamental conflict between the free exchange of data and people receiving fair compensation for their intellectual property and labor.

Victor