History Rhymes: Another Gygax Lawsuit

[the Jester]

Don't get me wrong, I understand why many people were disappointed by the bait and switch. But that seems to be what most people hate WG7 for, rather than its content.

I hate it for both the bait and switch and its (IMHO) awful content. When it first came out, I thought some of it was at least funny, and tried to run it; and it was pretty unusably bad. It put its jokes ahead of being a good adventure, far far ahead, and it suffered terribly for it.

But that's, like, just my opinion, man.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I hate it for both the bait and switch and its (IMHO) awful content. When it first came out, I thought some of it was at least funny, and tried to run it; and it was pretty unusably bad. It put its jokes ahead of being a good adventure, far far ahead, and it suffered terribly for it.

But that's, like, just my opinion, man.

How dare you! That's, like, my opinion, bruh. And opinions are like Highlanders- THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE MINE!

 

[timbannock]

IMHO, WG7 Castle Greyhawk isn't nearly as bad as its reputation suggests. Sure, it's a terrible Greyhawk module, but taken as its own thing, it's actually pretty good. Well, parts of it are. The three biggest criticisms I'd level at it are:

-Some groaningly bad attempts at humor (there are actual funny jokes as well, to be fair).

-Lack of overall cohesion. Feels like 12 separate one-level dungeons instead of 1 13-level dungeon. And it is. A few of the levels don't even seem to have any way to go up or down to other levels. Which is easily fixed, but really dumb. Levels get tougher as you go deeper, as seen in the recommended character Levels for each adventure... until they don't. Like, they just kinda gave up on the idea of recommended character Levels 3/4 of the way in. I'd love to hear about the production of this one, my guess is everyone was working separately, with little or no input or even contact from the other contributors. Some of these may have been intended as/for other projects.

-Some rather nasty (even if they're rooted in truth) digs at Gygax.

I'll also point out that some of the humor hasn't aged well, being based on pop culture references that are now outdated (and some of which were none too fresh at the time).

But for all of that, WG7 was written by a veritable who's who of RPG talent. Rick Swan, Guy McLimore, Jennell Jaquays, Greg Gorden, John Nephew, Scott Bennie, Ray Winninger, and Steve Perrin, among others. And the interior art is by Jim Holloway and Jeff Easley. An impressive roster, to say the least. Many of the levels are clever and look like they'd be fun to run or play. There is quite a wide variety of challenges, themes, monsters, and treasure.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why many people were disappointed by the bait and switch. But that seems to be what most people hate WG7 for, rather than its content.

You can't invalidate my hate, you're just Some Dude on the Internet!


... Is a better joke than any found in that module. Zing!

I jest.

 

[Nikosandros]

How dare you! That's, like, my opinion, bruh. And opinions are like Highlanders- THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE MINE!

I'm a very tolerant person. I totally respect that others can have opinions that are different from mine... and WRONG.

 

[JohnRTroy]

If people are looking for some extra context (rather that going off-topic), I remember that Facebook thread. It was deleted, but I had made some comments, and Tenkar from Tenkar's Tavern has a video with Screen shots, so you can see some of the exact exchange


I know there was talk about this for years, mostly in the 2000s when Gary was alive and still publishing Lejendary Adventures. You can find a quote from Gary himself about Castle Wolfmoon here:

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=328557#p328557

My only other comment is that I really think Luke needs to think before he decides to critique somebody on Facebook or social media. I feel like at times he let's his "D&D Influencer" status take control, where he posts first and bring disputes into the public realm, which I've seen happen before.

 

[haakon1]

When I bought it, I had never heard about Castle Greyhawk before, but I still disliked it extremely.

It is famously bad. Has WotC D&D ever had as disliked and disappointing a product? I can’t think of one.

Even the Dark Alliance console game of a few years was only very boring and not worth playing again after a half-hour try … which is a much more positive review than WG-7 gets from the zeitgeist.

 

[Saracenus]

IANAL because my ADHD and dyslexia would make it nearly impossible to craft a complaint without errors. Which means that Snarf would open a can of whoop-ass on any of my filings and make fun of me here on ENWorld. My self-esteem could not take the hit...

 

[Some Dude]

It is famously bad. Has WotC D&D ever had as disliked and disappointing a product? I can’t think of one.

Even the Dark Alliance console game of a few years was only very boring and not worth playing again after a half-hour try … which is a much more positive review than WG-7 gets from the zeitgeist.

In Dragon Magazine, Ken Rolston had some nice words to say about WG7:

Two light-hearted treasures for gamers with a sense of humor are described here:Castle Greyhawk, various authors. TSR,Inc., $9.95. This is what dungeon-bashing is all about: The Random Monster Generator, located on the lowest level of the dungeon, is running on Full Automatic. In order to achieve the truly fantastic, sometimes you need to be silly. The designers of this 12-level mega-dungeon have each been given a level to indulge their wildest whims and peculiar twisted geniuses. I freely admit that the FRPG play I enjoyed most in my formative years was this sor of bizarre, humorous, incoherent fantasy arcade adventure, where DMs took the totally illogical premises of the D&D and AD&D games, accepted them without question, then improvised thinly rationalized dungeon universes for us to wander about in, smashing and roasting things and having a thumping good time. Finally, TSR has dignified this style of play by publishing an anthology of really low fantasy scenarios. Hooray!

It also won the Gamer's Choice Award in Dragon Magazine #151 for "Best Role-Playing Adventure" in 1989.

Time has not been kind to it, but it didn't always seem to be so reviled.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

In Dragon Magazine, Ken Rolston had some nice words to say about WG7:


It also won the Gamer's Choice Award in Dragon Magazine #151 for "Best Role-Playing Adventure" in 1989.

Time has not been kind to it, but it didn't always seem to be so reviled.

This is the occasional reminder that Dragon Magazine was a publication of a little-known company called TSR.

TSR (for those not familiar with it) was a small games publishing house that put out WG7.

Now, assuming that the house magazine of TSR would award the "Best Role-Playing Adventure" to a TSR adventure ... the following were the modules released (the 1989 award went to 1988 modules):

DL15 & DL16 (short adventure collections)
H4 (The Throne of Bloodstone, Levels 18-100 ... I'll let the level guidance for this speak for itself)
I14 (Sword of the Iron Legion, 1-15+, Battlesystem required)
OA5 (Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw)
OP1 (Tales of the Outer Planes- mini adventure collection)
WG7 (Castle Greyhawk)

I will say this- this was one of the worst ever years for module releases in TSR's history.* I've never looked at them systematically, but I'm comfortable saying that it is ... the worst. And yet, I still think that the reason it "won" is because it was the ONLY MAJOR ADVENTURE RELEASE THAT YEAR, and this was a marketing push by TSR.

And you know what? It was still the worst of that barrel of dreck. ....okay, H4 might be as bad. But it's close. H4 was just terrible. But it wasn't terrible and motivated by spite.


*In my attempt to be fair and balanced, I will say that TSR was a little preoccupied because they were trying to, you know, revamp the core rules at the time. Not a small project.

 

[Some Dude]

This is the occasional reminder that Dragon Magazine was a publication of a little-known company called TSR.

TSR (for those not familiar with it) was a small games publishing house that put out WG7.

Now, assuming that the house magazine of TSR would award the "Best Role-Playing Adventure" to a TSR adventure ... the following were the modules released (the 1989 award went to 1988 modules):

DL15 & DL16 (short adventure collections)
H4 (The Throne of Bloodstone, Levels 18-100 ... I'll let the level guidance for this speak for itself)
I14 (Sword of the Iron Legion, 1-15+, Battlesystem required)
OA5 (Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw)
OP1 (Tales of the Outer Planes- mini adventure collection)
WG7 (Castle Greyhawk)

I will say this- this was one of the worst ever years for module releases in TSR's history.* I've never looked at them systematically, but I'm comfortable saying that it is ... the worst. And yet, I still think that the reason it "won" is because it was the ONLY MAJOR ADVENTURE RELEASE THAT YEAR, and this was a marketing push by TSR.

And you know what? It was still the worst of that barrel of dreck. ....okay, H4 might be as bad. But it's close. H4 was just terrible. But it wasn't terrible and motivated by spite.


*In my attempt to be fair and balanced, I will say that TSR was a little preoccupied because they were trying to, you know, revamp the core rules at the time. Not a small project.

Yes, but let's not assume that the staffers and writers at Dragon were incapable of impartiality. Were the Gamers' Choice awards voted on by readers?

My point stands. WG7 was not as hated upon its release as it would become in the decades that followed.