E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

[Kunimatyu]

I think the E6 idea is interesting, but like some other posters I feel the advancement beyond level 6 may be a bit dull.

How familiar are you with the eight-book Complete series, the Races series, the Spell and Magic Item Compendiums, Player's Handbook II, Heroes of Horror/Battle, the Dragon Compendium, and Dragon Magazine?

I find that many of the feats and spells in these sources offer a tremendous amount of variability, far more than higher-level class abilities. While Core-only E6 could get dull, I think, E6+additional WotC material could keep the game going for a very long time.

For instance, let's take Complete Scoundrel's Luck feats. Ordinarily, they're pretty neat, but not really possible to get more than 1-3 of unless you're giving up some very key feats. With E6, you can take almost the entire chain, and be the Luckiest Hero Ever. And then, if you want more to do, you can learn the Spring Attack chain, or pick some some tactical feats, etc, etc. That seems way more fun than a few additional BAB and some minor always-increasing abilities, AND it doesn't become impossible to DM well, like D&D's higher levels.

 

[HeinorNY]

I'll playtest my slower progression to see what comes out of that. I'll tell if it worked well or not and how.
See you next year

 

[joela]

E6 Video games

I don't play video games or on-line rpgs, but from what I understand from those who do and comments on this thread, E6 actually is closer to emulating those games than DnD. How? Apparently in many of those games, your PC stops leveling up like E6 and you have to rely on magic items to power up. In E6, feats seem to represent said items, though such items continue to exist. Standard DnD, on the other hand, has PCs with Dragonball Z increasing powers AND magic items.

Thoughts?

 

[Kunimatyu]

I don't play video games or on-line rpgs, but from what I understand from those who do and comments on this thread, E6 actually is closer to emulating those games than DnD. How? Apparently in many of those games, your PC stops leveling up like E6 and you have to rely on magic items to power up. In E6, feats seem to represent said items, though such items continue to exist. Standard DnD, on the other hand, has PCs with Dragonball Z increasing powers AND magic items.

Thoughts?

It's hard to provide a catch-all term for RPG videogames. Some, like World of Warcraft, have a level cap and advancement beyond that is limited to items. Others have a levelling system that will likely not be maxed out by the game's end, unless you specifically devote a lot of time to levelling up.

In comparison to most RPGs videogames, D&D spells are far and above more powerful and gamebreaking. A higher level spell in a videogame typically just does more damage, whereas D&D spellcasters can create impermeable walls of force, create waves of Con-damage green slime, or summon extraplanar creatures more powerful than they themselves are.

While I don't want to see D&D become overly videogamey, I do think that R&D could stand to kick higher-level spells in the teeth so that things aren't so ridiculous.

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All that being said, I don't think E6 has more in common with videogame RPGs than bog-standard D&D. Videogame RPGs are notorious for always-increasing stats, such that boss monsters in the early game will often become standard enemies later in the game. In E6, since the power curve is smaller, you won't have nearly the disparity.

 

[joela]

Jumping from E6 to E7

I don't remember who mentioned it, but if the DM wants to change the E6 campaign level to E7 or higher, s/he might consider having the PCs undergo the Test-Based Prerequisties over at UA.Let them defeat a 7th level fighter or wizard or whatever within a certain time frame. Or perform quests worthy of such a level. Maybe a E6 cleric/druid's deity requires them to defeat that "vengenance duplicate' from BoED or something. In any event, moving up a level is a major event, one that stresses the PC, and probably shouldn't happen more than once a campaign year (aka DM's approval).

 

[White Whale]

How familiar are you with the eight-book Complete series, the Races series, the Spell and Magic Item Compendiums, Player's Handbook II, Heroes of Horror/Battle, the Dragon Compendium, and Dragon Magazine?

I find that many of the feats and spells in these sources offer a tremendous amount of variability, far more than higher-level class abilities. While Core-only E6 could get dull, I think, E6+additional WotC material could keep the game going for a very long time.

For instance, let's take Complete Scoundrel's Luck feats. Ordinarily, they're pretty neat, but not really possible to get more than 1-3 of unless you're giving up some very key feats. With E6, you can take almost the entire chain, and be the Luckiest Hero Ever. And then, if you want more to do, you can learn the Spring Attack chain, or pick some some tactical feats, etc, etc. That seems way more fun than a few additional BAB and some minor always-increasing abilities, AND it doesn't become impossible to DM well, like D&D's higher levels.

I guess it's a matter of preference. Clearly, the E6 system will give more feats than the system I outlined. I don't know what you mean with "minor always-increasing abilities", but my gut tells me that adding a levels worth of abilities is usually more powerful than a feat. Also, with my system I would give a feat every third level as usual. And yes, I'm familiar with several of those books you mentioned.

I don't see how this system becomes any more impossible to DM than the E6 system. Please share your thoughts, as I am very interested to hear them. I have not actually tried any of these variants, so I'm probably overlooking something

 

[Ry]

I'll playtest my slower progression to see what comes out of that. I'll tell if it worked well or not and how.
See you next year

Yes! That's what it's all about: less talk, more play.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I don't play video games or on-line rpgs, but from what I understand from those who do and comments on this thread, E6 actually is closer to emulating those games than DnD. How? Apparently in many of those games, your PC stops leveling up like E6 and you have to rely on magic items to power up.
Thoughts?

Guild Wars [mmorg] does this, with the level cap at 20, which you reach after ~30% of the game. After that you increase in power with minor changes to magic items (ie getting a weapon that gives + 30 hp instead of +27 (to a base of 450 hp) and getting new elite spells (stolen from the dead bodies of boss monsters, although you can only bring 1 elite spell with you at a time)

In some areas every monster you face is lvl 24-28, teamwork, preparation and tactics are the only way to triumph. It is very much like E6.

 

[Ry]

One thing that should work in E6 is quick 5-feat "templates" that add +1 CR based around particular themes, i.e.

Biter
Ability Training (Strength), Ability Advancement (Strength), Weapon Focus (Bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (bite)

 

[Kunimatyu]

Yes! That's what it's all about: less talk, more play.

I'm not going to be able to do that until September, when I move to Davis and find a new group. I may see about running a few playtests of E6, where I make 6th level PCs with 10-12 feats and see how they play versions a range of CRs.