E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[The Souljourner]

Just stumbled onto this, and I think it's a fantastic idea. I really like that level 1-2 guys are still a threat when in large numbers, and yet there's no ridiculous abilities that in a realistic game would have the PCs be able to take over the world.

I also like that it decreases the reliance on high stats and lots of stat-bonus magic items. A 16 int gives a wizard a bonus to his highest level spell, and he can get that by starting with just a 15.

I'm wondering if anyone would ever choose to play a fighter, though. 4 feats is a lot at 6th level, but at 6+20, 4 feats isn't much at all compared to a ranger or paladin or barbarian who all get other significant class features.

-Nate

 

[pallen]

All the previous posters seem to be gushing over you ideas. To each his own. I must say, however, I feel your idea demonstrates poor design.<snip>

That is bad design.<snip>

That’s not fun.

Welcome to ENWorld. First off, I'd point out that this system isn't theoretical. It's been playtested and found to be enjoyable (by at least one group). While it may not be up your alley, it's working for some people.

As you say, to each his own.

Your approach, however is misguided. Having a level advancement system that just changes midway through the game is inconsistent and poorly designed.

If this were a homebrewed game system, I may agree. However, E6 is a relatively simple fix to a problem that some people have with the D&D rules in running certain kinds of campaigns. This fix involves a simple, easy-to-understand change to an existing (complex) rules set. Given that the alternative is sweeping rules changes that would result in a much, much different game, I'm fine with this inconsistency.

As far as poor design goes, I think the problem lies more with D&D than E6. It's a good game, but it has its issues.

 

[der_kluge]

No, they have caster requirements as well. According to the SRD: Clay requires CL11, Flesh CL8, Iron CL16, Stone CL14. Not to mention the spell prerequisites which may or may not exist in the E6 world (they are basically crafted just like magic items).

Ah, you're right.

By extension, animated objects don't exist, either, since that's a 6th level spell.

I am personally thinking about this from an E8 perspective since that is what I am thinking about running at some point. And the CRs for these golems are only 10, 7, 13, and 11 respectively, so certainly not outside the range of E8. I'm just curious what people think would be good explanations for why they exist since casters wouldn't be able to create them (except perhaps for the flesh golem).

Similarly for undead (except skeletons and zombies, which can be created just fine in E8 but not E6).

You could create an extra set of feat chains that would enable one to create the higher orders of golems. Of course, the spell list would need to be revised since limited wish is right out. Or, it could be created via a ritual, although getting a group of folks together to create a clay golem seems a rather strange thing.

 

[Nimloth]

I understand the problem you have identified in out of the box d20 D&D. The feeing and nature of play changes as level increases. Fixing an inconsistency of flavor with an inconsistency in mechanics is not a well designed solution.

IMO, it isn't "Fixing an inconsistency of flavor with an inconsistency in mechanics". Its fixing an mechanics problem with a mechanics fix. When I found E6 I had just finished a campaign that went 7 years and 16 levels (1 to 16). I had a list of game mechanics I wanted in a game and was thinking about switching to another game system to fit the list. Most of the list were problems I had at higher levels. I wanted;
-faster combat (high level combat/adventures took alot of time)
-less Uberness of spellcasters/spells at higher levels (CODzilla...)
-quicker prep time (stating out a 16th Cleric was very time consuming)

E6/8 fit the list perfectly, and I don't have to worry about teaching my players a new system. Keen gear.

Stat Up Feat
Choose a stat, you get +1 to that stat.
This feat may be chosen 2 times per stat.

I am sure there is a reason to do it the other way (2 feats to get +2 to 1 stat), but I think I will do it, 1 feat = +1.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Or, it could be created via a ritual, although getting a group of folks together to create a clay golem seems a rather strange thing.

Incantations don't require secondary casters -- an incantation that allows the caster to create a golem would actually be pretty easy to set up, and would make precisely as much sense as creating a golem in the core rules does right now.

 

[iceifur]

Incantations don't require secondary casters -- an incantation that allows the caster to create a golem would actually be pretty easy to set up, and would make precisely as much sense as creating a golem in the core rules does right now.

IIRC, that's how it was done in D20 Modern (using incantations for golem creation). Might be worth checking out for some ideas.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I am sure there is a reason to do it the other way (2 feats to get +2 to 1 stat), but I think I will do it, 1 feat = +1.

The reason for 2 feats for a +2 is that a feat to add +1 will give different benefits depending on your stats, many characters will only take the +1 to their odd stats and get the same advantages. so with a good (lucky) starting build 3 feats will give one character +1 to 3 different ability mods, while another character only gets a + 1 to one stat mod.
3.5 did away with odd stat modifiers, and with good reason.

I personally like the version that the first feat gives your attribute +2 that only effects skill rolls, and the second feat actually changes the attribute - but YMMV.

 

[jjsheets]

Rough Draft E6 Campaign Notebook

I have put my rough/first draft of my planned no-magic/all-psionic campaign out on the web. Check it out here. I would appreciate any feedback PMs, whether on the site design/navigation, or the design of the custom/psionic E6 rules. For those interested, I plan to start running the campaign on rpol.net sometime next week.

 

[Ry]

Hey jj, this link might help:

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-198878.html

It's a thread where a few of us posted cultures, don't know if it might help what you're working on for Omnia Psionic.

 

[Ry]

I'm wondering if anyone would ever choose to play a fighter, though. 4 feats is a lot at 6th level, but at 6+20, 4 feats isn't much at all compared to a ranger or paladin or barbarian who all get other significant class features.

Welcome, Nate! The fighter issue has been brought up several times in the forum-wildfire period of E6; so much so that I added a "capstone" feat for the fighter. That allows the fighter 6 to treat himself as a fighter 8 with a +8 BAB for the purpose of taking fighter feats thereafter. That means they can get Improved Crit and Greater Weapon Focus, which I think is a decent correction. That said, I'm convinced that the fighter is weak in D&D, and E6 just makes it more obvious.