E6: The Game Inside D&D
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Ry
Explorer
Well, if a Titan has meteor swarm, and almost 400 hitpoints, the ability to fly at will, greater dispel magic, and so on... then I can't think of an example of a character going up against one in literature.
Just like a high-level character is overbuilt and clunky representation of a fantasy hero, a monster like a Titan is an overbuilt and clunky representation of, say, Goliath.
Just like a high-level character is overbuilt and clunky representation of a fantasy hero, a monster like a Titan is an overbuilt and clunky representation of, say, Goliath.
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Ry
Explorer
Also, if you're looking at Call of Cthulhu then you're definitely talking about different circumstances compared to D&D. Those antagonists aren't monsters to fight like they are in D&D; and if you're not supposed to fight them directly, I think that's the ultimate change in circumstances.
Ry
Explorer
New attempt at explaining this right, since I'm 90% sure that joela and I don't actually disagree, it's just an apparent disagreement because I'm glossing things over:
For the GM
E6 isn't just a change for the players: Monsters are presented differently than in d20. Just as level 6 parties in D&D aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game. E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical D&D encounter.
In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what E6 characters can handle. Beyond that, a DM should take CR 7-10 monsters and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them. Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 10, or base monsters above CR 10 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights.
Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that this is an awesome encounter.
For the GM
E6 isn't just a change for the players: Monsters are presented differently than in d20. Just as level 6 parties in D&D aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game. E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical D&D encounter.
In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what E6 characters can handle. Beyond that, a DM should take CR 7-10 monsters and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them. Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 10, or base monsters above CR 10 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights.
Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that this is an awesome encounter.
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Viewpoint
Disagree? Nope, not by a longshot.I'm just looking at other resources that give E6 PCs a semblance of power to take on high-end regular DnD antagonists like a Titan. Example: There's a ritual in the SSS supplement, Relics & Rituals, that'll bind even a demigod. While the requirements include being a minimum level of 7 or 9 (I can't remember which right now) to use it, that could be either handwaved or by doubling (or quadrupling!) the rest of the requirements like the minimum number of characters/XPs/gold/etc. needed to cast the spell.
Other methods to dealing with a Titan head on is to pursuade an equally powerful being to take it on/grant the PCs enough temporary power to fight the Titan directly/location of a fantasy mecha/know the enemy Titan's weak spot (i.e., roll Fort. save, no modifiers, die if fail), etc.
From my perspective, high level DnD PCs are superheroes/minor demi-gods; they have all their fantastic abilities/powers all the time.
But what if they don't have access to those powers most of the time? That's where E6, to me, works beautiful: most of the time the PCs are incredible capable but mortal. But compare a E6+3 PC versus a 9th level PC, with the latter possessing all those extra hps, BAB, etc., of its class (never mind "appropriate" magic items at that level!) and the power gap is too extreme.
rycanada said:
Disagree? Nope, not by a longshot.I'm just looking at other resources that give E6 PCs a semblance of power to take on high-end regular DnD antagonists like a Titan. Example: There's a ritual in the SSS supplement, Relics & Rituals, that'll bind even a demigod. While the requirements include being a minimum level of 7 or 9 (I can't remember which right now) to use it, that could be either handwaved or by doubling (or quadrupling!) the rest of the requirements like the minimum number of characters/XPs/gold/etc. needed to cast the spell.
Other methods to dealing with a Titan head on is to pursuade an equally powerful being to take it on/grant the PCs enough temporary power to fight the Titan directly/location of a fantasy mecha/know the enemy Titan's weak spot (i.e., roll Fort. save, no modifiers, die if fail), etc.
From my perspective, high level DnD PCs are superheroes/minor demi-gods; they have all their fantastic abilities/powers all the time.
But what if they don't have access to those powers most of the time? That's where E6, to me, works beautiful: most of the time the PCs are incredible capable but mortal. But compare a E6+3 PC versus a 9th level PC, with the latter possessing all those extra hps, BAB, etc., of its class (never mind "appropriate" magic items at that level!) and the power gap is too extreme.
Ry
Explorer
I rewrote the last paragraph in light of your comment just now:
Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.
Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.
Memorable
Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage
rycanada said:
Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage
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