E6: The Game Inside D&D

[Ry]

You guys are fantastic; I'm loving all this work on E6 and related stuff, because I think people will really click with this. My weekly game is on hiatus, so it's really great to see people getting other games together that see how E6 puts the whole game together.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Interesting, you're right. In fact, there are VERY FEW +1 weapon enhancements that can be crafted in E6.

Only in core/RAW -- the magic item compendium has a ton of +1 equivalencies at or below CL6.

 

[Zelc]

Only in core/RAW -- the magic item compendium has a ton of +1 equivalencies at or below CL6.

Yea, though we should balance the game for core; not everyone has the MIC. Besides, no flaming swords!!! That's so... un-D&D .

EDIT: Oh yea. I crunched the numbers for a TWF Flurry Monk, and they were much better. Around the middle AC ranges, he was only doing around 3 less damage than a fighter. Still, that's a Monk with Dex 18 that burned 3 feats (TWF, Greater TWF, Weapon Finesse) for the damage...

 

[Kunimatyu]

Yea, though we should balance the game for core; not everyone has the MIC. Besides, no flaming swords!!! That's so... un-D&D .

::shrug::

I don't want to sound like a broken record at this point, but the MIC has elemental crystals that deal up to +1d6 damage at E6 caster level ranges...

I don't think it's vitally important that core has a huge diversity of options available beyond the base classes and the ability to get them on a relatively equal footing -- after all, that's what splatbooks are for, to give more options. As long as the basic framework is in place with a minimal number of rules tweaks (usually in the form of optional feats), I'm sure DMs will customize it to suit their needs.

(Oh, and Zelc, make sure to include in your analysis the fact that a Monk with Improved Natural Weapon will be doing 2d6 damage with two attacks at BAB +4 - essentially, he's TWFing with greatswords, which isn't bad considering the number of other toys Monk gets.)

I'll be posting my basic campaign document for my Dictionary of Mu-inspired game later today -- I'd love some feedback, especially on how well people think that players will be able to grasp the flavor of the setting.

 

[Zelc]

(Oh, and Zelc, make sure to include in your analysis the fact that a Monk with Improved Natural Weapon will be doing 2d6 damage with two attacks at BAB +4 - essentially, he's TWFing with greatswords, which isn't bad considering the number of other toys Monk gets.)

If a Monk gets full BAB progression (they should in E6), TWF, Improved TWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, No Penalty Flurry with TWF, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and he uses his unarmed attack as both his primary and secondary weapon, then he's actually about equal in damage output compared to a THF Fighter. If you're really worried about that case, then just say Flurry can't be used with TWF, and his expected damage output drops to about 4 less per round than a THF Fighter. That doesn't sound like much, but it's 20% less than a THF Fighter's expected damage output, which is HUGE. (I actually didn't realize Improved Natural Attack skipped d10; a normal Flurry with unarmed attacks will also be about 4 less damage than a Fighter).

What does a Monk get? They get 3 bonus feats. They get good saves. They get some OK healing, and slow fall (meh). They get improved speed, but flurry requires a full attack. They have 1 less HP per level than a fighter, plus they have MAD so they'll probably have a lower Con score. Their AC will be lower (the exception is if they get Mage Armor, although that takes up a spell slot and not every party will have it available). Hmm. Maybe it is pretty even.

Of course, don't read that and go "Hmm, then they don't really need full BAB progression". Their primary role is still beating stuff up in melee, and they really can't do that if they don't have full BAB. Their expected damage output becomes something just awful.

I don't want to sound like a broken record at this point, but the MIC has elemental crystals that deal up to +1d6 damage at E6 caster level ranges...

I don't think it's vitally important that core has a huge diversity of options available beyond the base classes and the ability to get them on a relatively equal footing -- after all, that's what splatbooks are for, to give more options. As long as the basic framework is in place with a minimal number of rules tweaks (usually in the form of optional feats), I'm sure DMs will customize it to suit their needs.

Yea, but again, not everyone has MIC . We should make sure the game works if they run it straight up core-only without any/many houserules, and core-only E6 would be more fun with flaming swords .

 

[Kunimatyu]

If a Monk gets full BAB progression (they should in E6), TWF, Improved TWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, No Penalty Flurry with TWF, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and he uses his unarmed attack as both his primary and secondary weapon, then he's actually about equal in damage output compared to a THF Fighter. If you're really worried about that case, then just say Flurry can't be used with TWF, and his expected damage output drops to about 4 less per round than a THF Fighter. That doesn't sound like much, but it's 20% less than a THF Fighter's expected damage output, which is HUGE. (I actually didn't realize Improved Natural Attack skipped d10; a normal Flurry with unarmed attacks will also be about 4 less damage than a Fighter).

What does a Monk get? They get 3 bonus feats. They get good saves. They get some OK healing, and slow fall (meh). They get improved speed, but flurry requires a full attack. They have 1 less HP per level than a fighter, plus they have MAD so they'll probably have a lower Con score. Their AC will be lower (the exception is if they get Mage Armor, although that takes up a spell slot and not every party will have it available). Hmm. Maybe it is pretty even.

Of course, don't read that and go "Hmm, then they don't really need full BAB progression". Their primary role is still beating stuff up in melee, and they really can't do that if they don't have full BAB. Their expected damage output becomes something just awful.

You're probably right re: the Monk and full BAB(and a quick look at the Ranger class adds further support), but this really isn't an E6 problem -- monks kinda suck in D&D3.5 in general. I think they suck *less* in E6 because their special abilities stay more relevant, and the Ability Training feat lets them "solve" MAD to an extent, but at the end of the day, they're nearer to the bottom of the curve.

However, fixing the Monk is really beyond the scope of E6, especially since Ryan has stated he's not terribly interested in trying to rebalance a lot of the D&D classes, and alterations to classes start to undercut the simplicity.

So...you're right, but I don't think a full-BAB Monk would make the E6 PDF. Still, it's an excellent analysis, and I'll probably house-rule Monks that way in my homegame.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Yea, but again, not everyone has MIC . We should make sure the game works if they run it straight up core-only without any/many houserules, and core-only E6 would be more fun with flaming swords .

That's a pity -- MIC is a damn fine book, one of the best WotC has produced for 3.5.

There are a lot of little things like the flaming swords issue, but I'm not really sure how to address it within the "core" E6 rules without upping the aforementioned houserule quotient.

Here's one way to do it -- flaming swords are powerful magical items, requiring a creature of more than mortal stature (Dragon, Titan, Trumpet Archon, Storm Giant, even a formian queen) to craft it.

They can also be relics of a forgotten era using secrets beyond the reach of magicians today.

You can also acquire a flaming sword in E6 as a Legacy Weapon(I *think*).

At the end of the day, I think choices like these are best up to the DM -- a "one-size-fits-all" approach likely won't work for E6.

 

[Mokona]

In fact, there are VERY FEW +1 weapon enhancements that can be crafted in E6.

My house rule removes the requirement that flaming weapons first be +1 weapons. Does this help lower the CL of a flaming sword?

 

[Imp]

At the end of the day, I think choices like these are best up to the DM -- a "one-size-fits-all" approach likely won't work for E6.

I agree – one of the attractions of E6 to me is that it doesn't have lots of flaming swords all over the place. What to do about TWF vs. THF vs. sword/board is, after a point*, probably the job of an entirely other set of optional rules (which I would welcome! yeesh) because it's such a big job.

*giving E6 monks pounce is probably a good idea; if they're that far behind in damage output I'd almost consider letting them full-attack during their move like a halfling outrider! sheesh. It would fit the class at least.

 

[shdwrnr]

My house rule removes the requirement that flaming weapons first be +1 weapons. Does this help lower the CL of a flaming sword?

No, Mokona. Crafting a mgic item uses the highest caster level requirement. Thus a +0, +1, +2, and even +3 flaming weapons are all CL 10.