E6: The Game Inside D&D
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Brudewollen
First Post
I haven't run a game in a number of years and am considering using E6 for my next as it's more in line with the kind of feel I prefer for a fantasy world (lower magic, gritty, etc. - big fan of George R.R. Martin's books).
One simple question I didn't see addressed anywhere. The OP/inventor makes mention of "Ritual" magic in Unearthed Arcana. I've been going through my old Unearthed Arcana book and I assume he means the Incantation rules? I even did a word search on the UA PDF and there doesn't seem to be anything on "ritual magic" in there that I can find. Please, am I missing something obvious and if so, what page of the UA book is it on?
One simple question I didn't see addressed anywhere. The OP/inventor makes mention of "Ritual" magic in Unearthed Arcana. I've been going through my old Unearthed Arcana book and I assume he means the Incantation rules? I even did a word search on the UA PDF and there doesn't seem to be anything on "ritual magic" in there that I can find. Please, am I missing something obvious and if so, what page of the UA book is it on?
kevin_video
Explorer
No, that's what he's talking about. The incantations are rituals. They just got called "ritual magic".
If you wanted anything different, you'd likely have to house rule other systems, like the Green Ronin books, so that they'd fit better.
You can Google search "D&D ritual magic", and it'll give you a few ideas on what other books you could look at. That's helped me.
If you wanted anything different, you'd likely have to house rule other systems, like the Green Ronin books, so that they'd fit better.
You can Google search "D&D ritual magic", and it'll give you a few ideas on what other books you could look at. That's helped me.
VanceMadrox
First Post
What are the relative advantages of E6 vs E8?
I'm looking at it mainly from a Pathfinder perspective but appreciate any comments.
For E6 it seems to be slightly easier prep work and keeping 4th level spells out of PC hands.
For E8 meanwhile, it seems to be a more logical breakpoint for most Pathfinder classes.
Does E8 really not keep the "spirit of E6"?
A few points of comparison to consider:
BaB: It's a 2 point difference for all but ½ BaB classes. Some people may not like the extra +2 to hit but I think the biggest issue here is ¾ BaB classes getting an extra iterative attack. This is really a matter of personal preference. Advantage: Tie
Break point: As has been pointed out in Pathfinder 8th level is a better break point for a lot of classes. Barbarians get damage reduction at 7, Rogues get improved uncanny Dodge. Domains and Arcane Schools vary on when they get their last powers. In E6 this could cause people to shy away from ones that don’t get powers till 8th level. In E8 it’s a non-issue. Sure you can make such things EPIC feats but for ease of use, E8 works better here. Advantage: E8.
Hit Points: 2 levels of hit points matter more than 2 levels of BaB and saves. At 8th level characters can have 70+ HP. I can understand the argument for keeping HP more reasonable. Advantage: E6
Leadership: This really depends on whether you like Leadership or not. By RAW Leadership is not available in E6 and it is in E8. This can be fixed easily by making it an EPIC feat but it still’s something to consider though ultimately a matter of preference: Advantage: Tie
Prep time: E6 keeps things a little lower powered so of course prepping is easier. It may only be a 2 level difference but I have seen from experience that 1st level Orcs out of the Bestiary are no challenege for 8th level characters. They’re not much challenege for 6th level ones either mind you but if they get lucky they’re much more likely to take 1 out. This may really just be because of the more HP though. And if you’re a GM who doesn’t mind throwing a few class levels on something then it’s not much difference. There’s plenty of non-humanoid monsters that can still be used straight out of the book. Advantage: E6
Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8
Saves: The only difference between 6th and 8th level is 1 point in a class’s good saves. Not a big issue. Advantage: Tie
Setting: In E6 you can create a sandbox world and 1st level characters mostly have a chance to successfully run away from anything. In E8 this is less true. Also the difference between 1st and 6th levels humans is less than that between 1st and 8th and overall seems more believable. To me it seems that in an E6 world you can get away with having most people be 1st level but for E8 it makes more sense if the average person is 2nd or 3rd level. Not a huge issue but something to consider. A matter of personal preference once again: Advantage : tie
Spells: A lot of people seem to point out higher level spells as something that complicates things and makes caster too powerful at higher levels. Personally with a few exceptions I don’t see an issue with most 4th level spells. There’s also lesser caster to consider. In E8 Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Summoners get 3rd level spells, in E6 they don’t. Looking on the lists I don’t see a lot of problematical spells here either. Advantage: E6 but only slightly.
Any thoughts? Anyone actually try both E6 and E8? If so how were your experiences with both?
I'm looking at it mainly from a Pathfinder perspective but appreciate any comments.
For E6 it seems to be slightly easier prep work and keeping 4th level spells out of PC hands.
For E8 meanwhile, it seems to be a more logical breakpoint for most Pathfinder classes.
Does E8 really not keep the "spirit of E6"?
A few points of comparison to consider:
BaB: It's a 2 point difference for all but ½ BaB classes. Some people may not like the extra +2 to hit but I think the biggest issue here is ¾ BaB classes getting an extra iterative attack. This is really a matter of personal preference. Advantage: Tie
Break point: As has been pointed out in Pathfinder 8th level is a better break point for a lot of classes. Barbarians get damage reduction at 7, Rogues get improved uncanny Dodge. Domains and Arcane Schools vary on when they get their last powers. In E6 this could cause people to shy away from ones that don’t get powers till 8th level. In E8 it’s a non-issue. Sure you can make such things EPIC feats but for ease of use, E8 works better here. Advantage: E8.
Hit Points: 2 levels of hit points matter more than 2 levels of BaB and saves. At 8th level characters can have 70+ HP. I can understand the argument for keeping HP more reasonable. Advantage: E6
Leadership: This really depends on whether you like Leadership or not. By RAW Leadership is not available in E6 and it is in E8. This can be fixed easily by making it an EPIC feat but it still’s something to consider though ultimately a matter of preference: Advantage: Tie
Prep time: E6 keeps things a little lower powered so of course prepping is easier. It may only be a 2 level difference but I have seen from experience that 1st level Orcs out of the Bestiary are no challenege for 8th level characters. They’re not much challenege for 6th level ones either mind you but if they get lucky they’re much more likely to take 1 out. This may really just be because of the more HP though. And if you’re a GM who doesn’t mind throwing a few class levels on something then it’s not much difference. There’s plenty of non-humanoid monsters that can still be used straight out of the book. Advantage: E6
Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8
Saves: The only difference between 6th and 8th level is 1 point in a class’s good saves. Not a big issue. Advantage: Tie
Setting: In E6 you can create a sandbox world and 1st level characters mostly have a chance to successfully run away from anything. In E8 this is less true. Also the difference between 1st and 6th levels humans is less than that between 1st and 8th and overall seems more believable. To me it seems that in an E6 world you can get away with having most people be 1st level but for E8 it makes more sense if the average person is 2nd or 3rd level. Not a huge issue but something to consider. A matter of personal preference once again: Advantage : tie
Spells: A lot of people seem to point out higher level spells as something that complicates things and makes caster too powerful at higher levels. Personally with a few exceptions I don’t see an issue with most 4th level spells. There’s also lesser caster to consider. In E8 Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Summoners get 3rd level spells, in E6 they don’t. Looking on the lists I don’t see a lot of problematical spells here either. Advantage: E6 but only slightly.
Any thoughts? Anyone actually try both E6 and E8? If so how were your experiences with both?
Ry
Explorer
E8 has a couple of problematic spells, like Evard's Black Tentacles, which can completely neutralize a character. 8th level in 3.5 was the very beginning of the magic-item arms race, as I saw it.
But I don't know Pathfinder well enough to comment. E8 may well be a better fit for Pathfinder.
But I don't know Pathfinder well enough to comment. E8 may well be a better fit for Pathfinder.
VanceMadrox
First Post
There are definitely a few 4th level spells that might need to banned and I have my eye on Black Tentacles as one possibility.
With the way grappling works now in Pathfinder I'm not sure it needs it though.
It's still a game breaker against non fighting types but from personal experience I've seen that there's a good chance that a fighting type won't be grappled. Being grappled is also not as bad as it use dto be.
Pathfinder has mechanics called Combat Manuever Bonus (CMB) and Combat Manuever Defense (CMD)
Basically roll a d20, add your CMB and if it meets or beats the opponent's CMD it works.
For Black tentacles CMB is Caster Level + 4 (STR) +1 Size. Sp at 8th level it's CMB is +13.
CMD is 10+ BaB + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Size Mod (0 for medium)
At 8th level a fighting type could easily have a a +4 in str or dex and a =3 in another (or +5 and +2). Adding in 8 BaB and that's a CMD of 25.
So against a well built fighting type the Caster needs a 12 or higher on the d20 to grapple the fighter type.
It's a little harder to break out of the grapple. For breaking out the spell's CMD is 10+ it's CMB bonus. So CMD 23.
CMB is BaB + Str Mod + Size Mod.
Assuming an 18 Str and an 8 Bab that's a +12 on the die roll. That means the figher only needs an 11 on the die.
For non fighting types it's a little worse but overall Black tentacles is much less deadly in Pathfinder.
With the way grappling works now in Pathfinder I'm not sure it needs it though.
It's still a game breaker against non fighting types but from personal experience I've seen that there's a good chance that a fighting type won't be grappled. Being grappled is also not as bad as it use dto be.
Pathfinder has mechanics called Combat Manuever Bonus (CMB) and Combat Manuever Defense (CMD)
Basically roll a d20, add your CMB and if it meets or beats the opponent's CMD it works.
For Black tentacles CMB is Caster Level + 4 (STR) +1 Size. Sp at 8th level it's CMB is +13.
CMD is 10+ BaB + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Size Mod (0 for medium)
At 8th level a fighting type could easily have a a +4 in str or dex and a =3 in another (or +5 and +2). Adding in 8 BaB and that's a CMD of 25.
So against a well built fighting type the Caster needs a 12 or higher on the d20 to grapple the fighter type.
It's a little harder to break out of the grapple. For breaking out the spell's CMD is 10+ it's CMB bonus. So CMD 23.
CMB is BaB + Str Mod + Size Mod.
Assuming an 18 Str and an 8 Bab that's a +12 on the die roll. That means the figher only needs an 11 on the die.
For non fighting types it's a little worse but overall Black tentacles is much less deadly in Pathfinder.
VanceMadrox
First Post
I can see that point.
7th and 8th level characters should be akin to Hercules, Jason, King Arthur, Merlin and the like. Legends among men.
I'm still highly debating the merits of both E6 and E8 and have not made a decision.
E6 is certainly more in the realms of human while E8 reaches the beginnings of superhuman.
But E8 really does seem to work better as a break point for Pathfinder classes.
7th and 8th level characters should be akin to Hercules, Jason, King Arthur, Merlin and the like. Legends among men.
I'm still highly debating the merits of both E6 and E8 and have not made a decision.
E6 is certainly more in the realms of human while E8 reaches the beginnings of superhuman.
But E8 really does seem to work better as a break point for Pathfinder classes.
Gilladian
Adventurer
I just started an e6 campaign this weekend, and am posting campaign notes (not a true story journal) here: Vishteer Campaign / Campaign Notes
It will mostly be Dragon's Delve and some Kingmaker sandboxed together, for those who are curious.
I'll comment on how well E6 works as I go along...
It will mostly be Dragon's Delve and some Kingmaker sandboxed together, for those who are curious.
I'll comment on how well E6 works as I go along...
Kingreaper
Adventurer
An option to consider: When they would hit 7th, give a feat, as for E6. When they'd get the second bonus feat, they hit 7th. Then 2 or 3 feats before hitting 8th. Then, they never reach ninth.
It's a bit of a combo of E6 and E8, and makes it more obvious that the final two levels are big.
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