Early Access to Paragon and Epic Tier feats == disaster?

[Prestidigitalis]

Let's say I create a campaign where characters are allowed early (but limited) access to Paragon and Epic Tier feats. For example, a level 1 Elf starts with the usual Heroic Tier feat, but also gets to take one Paragon feat and one Epic feat, for a total of 3 feats at level 1. A Human would get an extra Heroic feat, as usual.

Feat selection would still be limited by other prerequisites: race, class, power source, ability scores, skill training, other feats. Tier-scaled feats like weapon expertise and focus would not be affected -- Heavy Blade Focus would still give only +1 damage prior to level 11.

Some background: After 2+ years of 4e play, I finally have a character of level 14. Epic tier is still far away, and might not be reached at all as TPKs threaten constantly. Many of the most flavorful feats are only available at Paragon and (especially) Epic Tier. So I'm wondering if a campaign would necessarily fly out of control if a few top-tier feats were allowed to slip in early.

Clearly, some feats are a big deal. A Longtooth Shifter with Con 18 who gets to take Rapid Regeneration can regenerate 6 HP per round when bloodied -- a massive increase in effectiveness of an already cool and useful feature. Supreme Healer doubles the effectiveness of a Cleric's Healing Word. Dual Challenge lets a fighter mark an additional enemy with each Combat Challenge. Overwhelming Impact grants an at-will Dazed condition.

So there are two choices: the DM can disallow certain feats, or let the chaos begin.

I've already played in a campaign where high-level magic items were available early, and it didn't create too much havoc. But I would prefer a campaign more focused on my character and not on equipment. Feats seem like the way to go.

There are, of course, other ways to handle early access to feats. You could simply open it up completely -- take any feat at any time, so long as you meet the other requirements. Or you could keep the standard feat numbers (feats at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, etc.) but allow one Paragon and one Epic tier feat before level 11, and an extra Epic feat before level 21.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see characters who don't just take superior weapon proficiency at level 1, expertise at level 2, etc.?

Comments?

 

[DEFCON 1]

As a DM, I wouldn't have any problems with what you are proposing, for the simple fact that I will design encounters that will be challenging for you, regardless of how powerful you are.

So if you were to start with 3 (or 4) feats at first level... it just means you'll probably be facing off against more 3rd and 4th level encounters than you otherwise might.

You can give your players anything they want and still make the game challenging, if you as DM just take the time to analyze what your players will and will not be able to do.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

As a DM, I wouldn't have any problems with what you are proposing, for the simple fact that I will design encounters that will be challenging for you, regardless of how powerful you are.

See, that's the kind of attitude I like!

 

[aurance]

Quite frankly I don't think it would affect the balance of power that much. Feats per se don't really scale hugely, as they tend to augment other game elements that do scale. Give it a shot.

 

[Mengu]

If you keep a close eye on what's being picked up, it probably won't be a big problem. But I can immediately see some issues with an Avenger starting out with Painful Oath and Hand of Divine Guidance, two striker features that you're supposed to get with tiers, available at first level. In a similar vein, you may see a swordmage starting with Double Aegis and Rapid Aegis Reaction, to become twice the defender.

However you may also get cases where a monk may decide to grab Starblade Flurry and Centered Master, which would not be quite so bad from a striking perspective. Or a fighter grabbing Phalanx Warrior and Mobile Warrior would just feel like a different flavor of fighter.

With heavy handed DM monitoring or player imposed restraint, it could be quite interesting. Without either, you may be creating unintended gaps between characters.

 

[malraux]

I'd be all for it. A lot of the high level feats are about doing something special or awesome. I would imagine that you'll mostly see characters being a bit more cinematic with their abilities rather than outright explosions of power.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I'd be all for it. A lot of the high level feats are about doing something special or awesome. I would imagine that you'll mostly see characters being a bit more cinematic with their abilities rather than outright explosions of power.

That's what I had in mind. Actually, a few of the cooler feats even pop up at Paragon, but they generally don't see action because of a lack of feat slots. For example, Roll With It allows you to shift a square after being force-moved, turning a bad position into a good one, though it won't work if you have been knocked prone in the process.

 

[Lord Ernie]

Hrmmm... in my experience, Paragon feats aren't that much of an increase from heroic feats (with a few exceptions, like the Prime Shot line for the Ranger), but things get a little crazier at Epic. Characters will have access to 19-20 crit rates, double the healing and defending prowess, and other such crazy things, from level 1 onwards.

I would love to see the results if you tried it .

 

[LightPhoenix]

Hrmmm... in my experience, Paragon feats aren't that much of an increase from heroic feats (with a few exceptions, like the Prime Shot line for the Ranger), but things get a little crazier at Epic. Characters will have access to 19-20 crit rates, double the healing and defending prowess, and other such crazy things, from level 1 onwards.

That's what I had in mind. Actually, a few of the cooler feats even pop up at Paragon, but they generally don't see action because of a lack of feat slots. For example, Roll With It allows you to shift a square after being force-moved, turning a bad position into a good one, though it won't work if you have been knocked prone in the process.

I think this is mostly a result of the early 4E design being focused on powers. The designers didn't want feats to do "cool stuff," so any that did got moved to Paragon. As a result, most of the Paragon tier feats aren't that overpowered for Heroic tier. They are some combos to watch out for - Wintertouched/Lasting Frost, for example - but you generally have to keep an eye on them anyway.

That said, I'm not sure giving all the bonus feats at first level is the answer, unless you're specifically going for the feel of people that know what they're doing. I'd simply remove the tier requisites and if you really wanted more feats, grant bonus ones at levels you get ability score bonuses.

 

[KarinsDad]

Some background: After 2+ years of 4e play, I finally have a character of level 14. Epic tier is still far away, and might not be reached at all as TPKs threaten constantly. Many of the most flavorful feats are only available at Paragon and (especially) Epic Tier. So I'm wondering if a campaign would necessarily fly out of control if a few top-tier feats were allowed to slip in early.

Is a TPK really that big of a constant threat? Is your DM following the XP guidelines, or are the PCs just so powerful that he has to overcompensate? Our group played to level 18 and Paragon started becoming fairly easy due to the sheer number of non-At Will powers used each encounter combined with the increased synergies of the PCs to work together.

And wouldn't giving more powerful feats to the PCs just result in the DM making more encounters even more powerful, hence, increasing the challenge level and a set of good DM die rolls and poor player die rolls resulting in a TPK being more likely?

It would seem that allowing the feats would result in the players being able to play with the shiny toys (i.e. feats) for a while, but also result in the DM reacting to the power increase and end up TPKing the PCs and taking the shiny new toys away anyway.

Could you give an idea of where Epic feats are more flavorful and not just more powerful or with more utility?