Early Ultimate Magus, Yes?

[RigaMortus2]

The simple fact is that the ability to prepare a single 2nd level spell under certain circumstances does not constitute "the ability to cast 2nd level spells."

The ability to prepare and cast a 2nd level spell is not the same as "the ability to cast 2nd level spells."??? Huh?

You can argue that it's very similar to the case of a 3rd level wizard who can only cast one spell and insists on wearing leather armor, but it's still just not quite the same.

Depends on the wording of the PrC you are looking to enter. If it simply says "the ability to cast 2nd level spells" then I don't see why it wouldn't work. You take the feat. The feat grants you (a) a second level spell and (b) a 2nd level spell slot, that must be used to cast the 2nd level spell you chose. Thus, you are capable of casting 2nd level spells... It says nothing about "reliably" casting the spell, just the ability to cast, which you have. Otherwise, every instance that prevents you from casting a certain level of spell would disqualify you from certain PrCs based on their prereqs...

Also, if it did constitute the ability to cast 2nd level spells, as soon as you took the feat, you would lose it and gain a 2nd level spell slot. Then, you would have a 2nd level spell slot and no ability to cast 2nd level spells.

This only occurs once you gain 2nd level spells from gaining levels in a spellcasting class. When you want to enter a PrC, you have to meet the Prereqs. You have to meet them BEFORE you enter the PrC, and you have to have them to continue to take advantage of the PrC. So if you are able to cast 2nd level spells soley because of this feat, you would qualify for the PrC. Upon entering it, you might gain a spell level, bumping you up to 2nd level spells. So while you lose the spell you picked, you still retain the slot and you can still cast 2nd level spells anyway. In effect, the PrC is granting you the ability to stay in the PrC (vs granting you ENTRY into the PrC, something you already have).

 

[Sejs]

1Wiz/1Sor/XUltimate Magus
Feat at 1st level, precocious apprentice (wizard).

Yes?

No.

Precocious Apprentice doesn't fulfill spell level requirements to qualify for things such as PrCs, etc.

Stated in the FAQ.

The designers have said numerous times that to do so was never the intent, they didn't think of that at the time it was written, mea culpa, here's the relevent missing text.

 

[Seeten]

Ultimate Magus:

Wizard 4/Sorceror 1, Practiced Spellcaster(Sorceror)
Ultimate Magus 1, CL add to Wizard
Ultimate Magus 2, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 3, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 4, CL add to Wizard
Ultimate Magus 5, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 6, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 7, CL add to Sorc Unless your a Kobold or Illumian with +2 CL sigil
Ultimate Magus 8, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 9, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Ultimate Magus 10, CL add to Wizard/Sorc
Wizard 5
Wizard 6
Wizard 7
Wizard 8
Wizard 9

CL 22 as Wizard, CL 13 as Sorc , Spells as an 18th level wizard. Spells as a 9th level Sorc.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Ultimate Magus:

Wizard 4/Sorceror 1, Practiced Spellcaster(Sorceror)

Ultimate Magus 7, CL add to Sorc Unless your a Kobold or Illumian with +2 CL sigil

CL 22 as Wizard, CL 13 as Sorc , Spells as an 18th level wizard. Spells as a 9th level Sorc.

And of course someone has to bring in the other cheesy Illumian/Practiced spellcaster cheese tothe table. Man I get tired of people who onbly can read the letter ofthe rules when it benefits their character. Practiced spellcster and such are obviously not intended to give CL in this way, jsut when spells are being cast, as I interpret it in my games.

 

[pawsplay]

This only occurs once you gain 2nd level spells from gaining levels in a spellcasting class. When you want to enter a PrC, you have to meet the Prereqs. You have to meet them BEFORE you enter the PrC, and you have to have them to continue to take advantage of the PrC. So if you are able to cast 2nd level spells soley because of this feat, you would qualify for the PrC. Upon entering it, you might gain a spell level, bumping you up to 2nd level spells. So while you lose the spell you picked, you still retain the slot and you can still cast 2nd level spells anyway. In effect, the PrC is granting you the ability to stay in the PrC (vs granting you ENTRY into the PrC, something you already have).

You seem to be missing my point. If Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, as soon as you take it, you lose the ability to prepare a spell using Precocious Apprentice, but now have a 2nd level slot (and no second level spells).

EDIT: Met me add that while you are free to use your definiton of "ability to cast 2nd level spells", I have already rejected it in my post so repeating it to me is of little rhetorical value.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

And of course someone has to bring in the other cheesy Illumian/Practiced spellcaster cheese tothe table. Man I get tired of people who onbly can read the letter ofthe rules when it benefits their character. Practiced spellcster and such are obviously not intended to give CL in this way, jsut when spells are being cast, as I interpret it in my games.

In what way is Practiced Spellcaster supposed to grant caster levels, if not by increasing your caster level by 4, to a maximum limit equal to your hit dice?

I agree, it's a pretty cheeseball trick. But it's completely legitimate given that there is only one meaning of "caster level". They'll need to do some fancy re-writing in order to patch this one up if they want to errata it.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't see why using Practiced Caster to enter a PrC is a problem.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't see why using Practiced Caster to enter a PrC is a problem.

It's not the entry. It's the ability to bypass a key limitation of theurge-style PrCs. A "standard" ultimate magus doesn't get 9th level spells until epic levels, which is the balancing factor against the dramatically increased number of spells cast. The idea is that he's so far behind a single-classed caster that his increased versatility is balanced out by a loss of raw power. However, by being an illumian and giving up one level of wizard, you can get 8 levels of sorcerer, as well as bonuses to your caster level in both classes.

If you don't want to be an illumian, you have to give up two wizard levels, but you get 9 sorcerer levels. This seems to me to be a dramatically different trade-off than giving up four wizard levels in order to gain 11 sorcerer levels. Being two spell levels behind a single-classed caster is a major drawback. When the wizard is 17th level and gets his first 9th level spell, you'll only be casting your first 7th level spell.

 

[Darklone]

Practised Spellcaster gives a bonus to spellcaster level that is limited by HD... I wouldn't allow it to stack with other improvements to spellcasterlevel if that increases the effective spellcasterlevel above the HD.

One question: Last time I read the UM prClass, the first level didn't give a wizard spellcasting advancement...?

It advances the "lower-level existing arcane casting class". In the presented builds here that would be the sorcerer class, right?

I guess that's why everyone takes PracSpell for the sorcerer level... to be able to increase the wizard spellcasting.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Practised Spellcaster gives a bonus to spellcaster level that is limited by HD... I wouldn't allow it to stack with other improvements to spellcasterlevel if that increases the effective spellcasterlevel above the HD.

One question: Last time I read the UM prClass, the first level didn't give a wizard spellcasting advancement...?

It advances the "lower-level existing arcane casting class". In the presented builds here that would be the sorcerer class, right?

I guess that's why everyone takes PracSpell for the sorcerer level... to be able to increase the wizard spellcasting.

Exactly. If you're a Sor1/Wiz4, and you take Practiced Spellcaster at level 1 or 3 for your Sorcerer, your caster levels will be Sor5/Wiz4 going into the PrC, so you advance Wiz instead of Sor when you advance the lower-level class.