Earth Elementals & Tremorsense...

[azhrei_fje]

Okay, so for question 1A you're saying that being 100% inside the rock -- except for an appendage appearing during an attack -- is worth the standard +4 AC for cover when attacked. But if it's completely obscured, shouldn't it be like attacking an invisible creature? (Pick a square and hope for the best.) And because the creature is inside solid stone, those on the outside do not have line-of-effect, right? Nor do they have live-of-sight unless they can see through stone? And even if they have a ring of x-ray vision or something similar, what do they see? Stone within stone? Would the elemental just appear to look like he alien in the Predator movie with its cloaking enabled?

What about 1B? Does the creature have to step out of the rock in order to make its own attacks?

I really need some HELP!! grasping what effects the author(s) of the MM was trying to give the earth elemental.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I have no idea what the designer who did the EE was thinking. But the way I'd interprate it is as follows:

1A: EE has NO miss chance against things in contact with the ground. It moves through and senses through earth/stone as easily as a human moves/sees through air. And sorry: I don't think refraction of light is similar to tremor sense; which I assume picks up on echoes through the ground. You could if like make it a mystic sense rather than sonar-ish one to avoid any pseudo scientific arguments.

1B: You could handle it a few ways. You seem to be thinking that it should be harder to hit than normal. I'd agree with that. I'd give it it's usual AC and then give it cover. About 75% to 90% with the appropriate miss-chance.

2: Now the levitating or flying PC is much harder for the EE to deal with. If the PC only occasionally touches the ground then the EE only occasionally knows where they are. If the EE can guess the likely course of the PC and readies and action (and these are judge calls based on variables in the scenario) I'd allow it to take a swing but give the PC 90% concealment and the miss chance for it.

3A: It works the other way around for the PCs. How do they know where the EE is going to poke itself out of the ground? If they can make a reasonable guess (and be fair here, try to decide where it will be before the PCs make their intentions known) let them take a shot. If the PC's do get a shot in then, as per 1B give it cover and the miss chance.

3B: Judges call. I'd say no, but then I'm generally considered a pretty harsh.

Hope this helps.

 

[azhrei_fje]

I have no idea what the designer who did the EE was thinking. But the way I'd interprate it is as follows:

1A: EE has NO miss chance against things in contact with the ground. It moves through and senses through earth/stone as easily as a human moves/sees through air. And sorry: I don't think refraction of light is similar to tremor sense; which I assume picks up on echoes through the ground. You could if like make it a mystic sense rather than sonar-ish one to avoid any pseudo scientific arguments.

Thanks, Drunk.

The part about requiring a miss chance roll was based on the EE using its darkvision 60' ability. If it has that ability (and I'm not sure it should), then it should be able to visually see creatures as well as sensing them via tremorsense. Would darkvision work through solid stone? If it does, would the surface of the stone cause the image to blur, just like looking through the surface from underwater makes the image wavy?

I think I'm just going to get rid of the darkvision ability altogether. With a good tremorsense -- which I think the EE has -- there's really no need for it. My players argument was that even if the EE could pinpoint them via tremorsense, it would still be attacking blind and the 50% miss chance would apply. They equated it to being able to pinpoint a creature who is invisible. But I think I'm going to treat it more like a bat which uses echolocation -- they don't have a 50% miss chance (presumably because their mode of sight is normal for them) so the EE shouldn't have the miss chance either.

1B: You could handle it a few ways. You seem to be thinking that it should be harder to hit than normal. I'd agree with that. I'd give it it's usual AC and then give it cover. About 75% to 90% with the appropriate miss-chance.

Your numbers sound like 2E numbers. Nothing wrong with that, but I'll convert to 3.5E numbers and figure an AC bonus of +4 to +8 depending on the amount of cover.

2: Now the levitating or flying PC is much harder for the EE to deal with. If the PC only occasionally touches the ground then the EE only occasionally knows where they are. If the EE can guess the likely course of the PC and readies and action (and these are judge calls based on variables in the scenario) I'd allow it to take a swing but give the PC 90% concealment and the miss chance for it.

Remember that all of these actions are taking place simultaneously -- initiative is just to keep things orderly for game purposes.

In that case, they are touching the ground at the same time that the EE is taking its action, so there shouldn't be any issue with a delay. Well, unless they move one round and don't the next.

But I think I've talked myself into not allowing a levitating creature to touch the ground at all. If they attempt to stretch an appendage to the ground, the spell simply lifts them higher by the same amount... I'll have to start another thread for this, though.

3A: It works the other way around for the PCs. How do they know where the EE is going to poke itself out of the ground? If they can make a reasonable guess (and be fair here, try to decide where it will be before the PCs make their intentions known) let them take a shot. If the PC's do get a shot in then, as per 1B give it cover and the miss chance.

Well, for readying a spell the caster doesn't need to know where the creature will appear. It's perfectly valid to say, "I ready an action to cast scorching ray at the EE as soon as I see it." If an appendage appears from out of the wall and attacks someone, then as a continuation of the swing returns back into the wall, does the readied action happen? If so, what is the effective AC that the spell needs to hit?

Or is attacking an appendage the same as a called shot and called shots don't exist in 3.5E, so the readied action never happens?

3B: Judges call. I'd say no, but then I'm generally considered a pretty harsh.

I think I'm going to have to stick with my original ruling on this one. I've been thinking about it and if the acid/oil were left behind when the EE retreated into the rock, then spells like glitterdust wouldn't work either. And I'm not prepared to rule that the ability to move through rock is quite that powerful.

Hope this helps.

Yes, this has been great. Thank you!

I only wish I could turn back the clock and play that encounter again. I'll just have to make sure that they face more EEs and I'll play it right when that happens. Given that the module is RttToEE, that shouldn't be too hard!

 

[azhrei_fje]

So no one else wants to take a shot at answering some of the questions I posed about how to run an EE? I was hoping to hear from some of the "experts" (you know who you are!).

Once again, I'll say "thanks in advance" for any and all help!

 

[azhrei_fje]

Okay, my last *bump*. :\

But what do you other DMs do when handling earth elementals? Maybe you just never use them so it's not a problem for you? (sigh)

 

[clearic guy]

Simple answer, just make all your players buy gryphon mounts then tremorsense be damned.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Heh-heh, nice try. But that doesn't work in an underground area, which is where the EE is most likely to be encountered.

Have you read the griffon's MM entry? They have a 25-foot wingspan! The hippogriff -- which is better in many ways -- has a 20-foot wingspan. So underground, a fly spell is the best solution, or at a minimum, levitate.

 

[werk]

1A. Assuming it has tremorsense (as everyone above seems to have house-ruled as well), does it have to roll the 50% miss chance that the target gets for total concealment if the EEE stays inside the walls or floor? Why or why not?

If it has tremorsense and earthglide I don't know why the earth is any hinderance. Earthglide says: as easily as a fish swims through water. Now, I don't have fish jump out of the water in order to attack. So if they can see through earth with tremorsense, and glide through earth as if it were water, then what is providing cover or concealment? Nothing.

2. If an opponent is levitate'ing 1 inch off the ground and uses the ground to move along periodically (is this even possible?), does the act of touching the ground or a wall allow the EEE to target the creature using the tremorsense ability? What would the attack modifiers be?

Yes, touching the earth allows the EEE to 'see' the character. If the target is not touching the ground the hidden(concealed/covered) EEE can just attack blindly into squares from below hoping to grab a PC or can come out of the ground and use regular vision.

3A. Can readied ray spells be targeted at an appendage when it quickly appears and disappears during the EEE's attack routine?

There's some debate around this, I say no just for simplicity. (I use the 'not a reality simulator' approach.)

3B. If acid or oil is thrown onto an EEE in round 1, is the acid or oil still coating its appendage when it retreats into the rock and comes out again on round 2?

I'd say yes. Acid is just a splash damage, with no continuing effect. The alchemist fire clearly states what can be done to smother the fire, so if the EE doesn't do one of those, he's still burnin...but I'd give him +2 to the save to extinguish for 'rolling on the ground'.

Hope that helps...