Ebberon - If not guns, then what?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Essentially, it comes down to the fact that D&D isn't realistic. It's a game, not a historical simulation. Eberron takes that a step farther; it's supposed to be over the top. If you want to Tumble in full plate, good for you; that's what action points are for.

Actually, that's possible even in real life - see this thread for examples...


Back to the usage of magic items: Sure, certain magic items can give you a lot of killing power. But still, investing in infantry makes a lot of sense because in most cases you can't use magic items to hold territory. Sure, you might use your fancy magic to kill all enemies in a certain region - but what then? At best, all you have done is to deny the territory to the enemy for a time - but unless you put your own soldiers into it and let them patrol it, you haven't conquered it and thus cannot derive any revenue from it.


Too often people forget that in wars, killing the enemy is only one of the objectives.

 

[Shazman]

There are crossbows in Eberron which fire magical "blast" bolts that explode on impact. That's probably the closest thing to firearms in Eberron. I'm sure large units of soldiers had magewrights or artificers with wands for blasting and repairing warforged as well as halflings with the mark of healing and clerics for healing soldiers. I haven't read Forge of War, but that's probably the best place to find an answer to your question.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

From a logistical perspective, it makes sense to leave permanent magic items to truly elite units - those who can be expected to hold onto them after battles.

For ordinary troops, one-shot items make more sense. They are much cheaper to make, and are used up during the fight. If the soldiers using them survive the battle, great - they can get more consumable items afterwards. If not - well, then at least the enemies won't get valuable magical resources in the process.

More experienced troops with higher odds of survival get better gear. However, only the best will get, say, wands with more than 10 charges...

 

[D.Shaffer]

Considering that you can enchant bolts in groups of 50, and that alchemical based bolts are around too, I'm sure that you're going to see a wide variety of magical/alchemical ammo of some sort. It's much cheaper, and probably more effective in the long run, to give your groups of soldiers a couple one shot items to use for special occasions. I'd see them as the equivalent of grenades.

 

[Glyfair]

For ordinary troops, one-shot items make more sense. They are much cheaper to make, and are used up during the fight. If the soldiers using them survive the battle, great - they can get more consumable items afterwards. If not - well, then at least the enemies won't get valuable magical resources in the process.

And in many cases the middle units will have a spellcaster attached for things such as magic weapon spells and the like. No magic items necessarily involved (beyond what the spellcaster is carrying around).

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I don't see why a line of weapons couldn't be introduced as "firearms" and improved versions of crossbows. A gun that fires a magical beam of energy or a rifle that shoots powerful, piercing forces of sonic energy? With the way Eberron is technologically, I am confused by the sudden evolutionary "gap" where firearms should be.

I think there's a simple justification: magic isn't gunpowder.

Historically, the introduction of large cannons led very quickly to the introduction of smaller firearms. However, that's because gunpowder and other chemical explosives is scaleable in a way that magic isn't.

• A wand of magic missile costs 750 gp.
• Eighteen light crossbows with 50 bolts each costs only 720 gp.
• A wand of magic missile requires either an arcane spellcaster or someone with a decent Use Magic Device check; the DC is 20, after all, so you'd need a 4th-level character with Use Magic Device as a class skill and Skill Focus to make the check 50% of the time.
• A 1st-level warrior can use a light crossbow with no special training or feat investment, and you can equip eighteen of them for less than the cost of a single wand.
• A wand of magic missile hits every time for 2-5 damage.
• A light crossbow has a good chance of missing, but I'm confident that eighteen shots doing 1-8 damage if they hit will compete over time.
• A wand of magic missile, once its 50 charges are expended, costs a full 750 gp to replace.
• A light crossbow, once its 50 bolts have been fired, costs only 5 gp to resupply with another 50 bolts - 90 gp to resupply all eighteen crossbows.
• If the soldier carrying a wand of magic missile is killed, the wand is out of commission.
• If a soldier carrying a light crossbow is killed, there's still seventeen other crossbows in play.

There's no provision in the rules for something cheaper than, but as effective as, a wand of magic missile - it would be unbalanced.

Conversely, a magical replacement for a cannon makes sense, and I think they would definitely exist - the investment of a well-trained artificer or spellcaster to operate a weapon with an area of effect or a siege weapon-level impact on the battle becomes justified at that point.

The reason a magical artillery piece like that is a reasonable investment compared to a spellcaster is that the crew can be replaced if they're killed or injured - it's easier to put a new artificer behind an arcane ballista than it is to replace a sorcerer or battle mage who can cast fireball.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Also: the breakout weapon of the Last War? The warforged.

 

[Eldragon]

I have always assumed guns existed, but are rarely used in Eberron because they are pointless in a magical setting. Much like how our soldiers don't carry crossbows today. Gunpowder certainly must exist, because alchemy is so widely practiced in this setting. They might not have used guns; but rockets, grenades, flares, etc are all very reasonable and still useful in this setting.

If I was equipping soldiers in the Last War, I certainly would give them grenades. But we already have that, its called "Alchemist's fire". However I'm sure any DM would allow a grenade weapon that has the same mechanics as the Alchemist's fire flask but does Force damage and does not set the target on fire.


In our group, we have had the running joke/idea of the "Ring Gate Railgun". Imagine taking the Ring Gate wonderous item, and position the gates so that an objects falling through the first gate emerges from the second gate and falls down... back into the first gate. This creates a loop accelerating the object to terminal velocity. When ready to fire, position the second gate pointing towards the target. Instant ultra-cannonball!


When used as a personal firearm, Scale the gates down to a 1 inch diameter, and reducing the range of separation of the gates to a half a foot (Reducing the crafting cost). Now only small objects will accelerate. Set up a "trigger" that rotates the gate 90 degrees when pulled, propelling the object in the desired direction. Works just like a firearm, but would do far more damage than a musket.

Don't take the above too seriously, its just an example of using magic to replace firearms/cannons. Thus making real firearms obsolete.

 

[Glyfair]

Gunpowder certainly must exist, because alchemy is so widely practiced in this setting.

I keep hearing variations like this and I don't get it. Why?

Clearly D&D science isn't the same as in our world because many of those alchemical items don't work in our world. Why is it necessarily true that if you mix the ingredients of gunpowder that it will work the same? Perhaps all you get is a little puff of smoke and nothing else. Maybe nothing happens at all.

I hear "they must have discovered it," but what if it isn't there to discover?

 

[BlackMoria]

Clearly D&D science isn't the same as in our world because many of those alchemical items don't work in our world. Why is it necessarily true that if you mix the ingredients of gunpowder that it will work the same? Perhaps all you get is a little puff of smoke and nothing else. Maybe nothing happens at all.

I hear "they must have discovered it," but what if it isn't there to discover?

That is the exact assumption in the Forgotten Realms - gunpowder as we know it doesn't work. There are firearms in the Realms (very rare items) and they uses a magical alchemical substance called smokepowder. Adding sulphur to charcoal and saltpeter (primitive gunpowder) doesn't work unless it is rendered magically 'active' by some alchemical/magical process.