Ebberon - If not guns, then what?

[Imp]

I am not sure I am sold on the effectiveness vs. cost of the 1st-level magic missile wand as a standard battlefield weapon. Even assuming a preponderance of 1st-level warriors it's not going to bring them down reliably and it's outranged by crossbows which can fire en masse from a range increment or two out and can be deployed 10-to-one versus the wand. It's probably a skirmisher weapon vs. heavy infantry. That it would be good at. It's doomed versus cavalry. Ding one, two guys and you're overrun.

I'd rather deploy wands of obscuring mist or mage armor as standard equip/ "crew-served" weapons, if I had the option.

 

[DreadPirateMurphy]

According to the DMG, a musket costs 500gp, and many real-world nations had thousands of soldiers armed with them.

You're assuming that the cost of a musket in the real world has any relevance to the cost in the DMG. The DMG price seems to be based on presumed rarity as much as on actual cost to manufacture. In a world like Eberron, you could assume that mass production techniques would make guns much cheaper.

The real question is whether or not firearms would ever evolve. From the 14th to the 16th centuries, real world armies used a mixture of cavalry, cannon, firearms, crossbows, pikes and longbows. Things changed gradually over hundreds of years. There was no "Eureka!" moment when everybody suddenly started using firearms to the exclusion of everything else.

If you assume a medieval period of technology, then any firearms would be relatively primitive. Cannon were originally large and expensive, but they were used for seige warfare because they could bring more power to bear than mechanical seige weapons. In a world like Eberron, I find it hard to believe that a nation would invest in large cannon when they could have a spellcaster serve the same purpose. Mobile horse artillery would certainly be useful, but they weren't developed until much later after much technological evolution.

Small firearms such as the arquebus were relatively cheap compared to longbows, which required years of training, or crossbows, which required expensive steel. Magic is certainly not cheap by comparison, so there is an argument to be made for the development of small arms. I could see ranks of arquebus protected by pike on the battlefields of Eberron, just as in the real world. Artillery would be replaced by magic. As firearms advanced, they would gradually become more expensive, too, but the efficacy would also increase to the point when nobody would choose a crossbow over a musket.

There is one obvious reason why, in a world of magic, firearms are problematic. The technology is dependent upon a chemical powder that is highly combustible. Imagine the effect of even a small fire elemental on a troop armed with firearms. How many low-level spells can create flames or sparks? Unlike the real world, in Eberron, it is relatively easy to spread flame over a broad area at a distance. Who wants to literally be sitting on a powder keg when the pyromancer shows up? The DM could logically rule that firearms are just too vulnerable to common magic to justify common usage. If utility is lower, then the cost advantage disappears.

I think a DM could justify firearms or exclude them in a plausible way, depending upon personal taste.

 

[Glyfair]

I've read many forum threads about firearms and their place (or lack thereof) in the Eberron campaign setting lately. The biggest argument against them is the proliferation of magic in that world.

We had a discussion about this recently and the biggest argument is that technology in Eberron is no more advanced than D&D standard. It's the magic industry that's advanced.

fter 100+ years of a magical arms proliferation, including living constructs, animated siege engines, and airships, I find it very hard to believe that no one ever came up with a deadlier weapon for the common soldier to use than a pointy bit of metal.

It's still D&D. If you add guns and the like than you'll have them running around instead of swords and crossbows.

There are elite groups of Magewrights that carried eternal wands. Expensive (which is the big problem with "common magic"), but around.

 

[Aeric]

I am not sure I am sold on the effectiveness vs. cost of the 1st-level magic missile wand as a standard battlefield weapon. Even assuming a preponderance of 1st-level warriors it's not going to bring them down reliably and it's outranged by crossbows which can fire en masse from a range increment or two out and can be deployed 10-to-one versus the wand. It's probably a skirmisher weapon vs. heavy infantry. That it would be good at. It's doomed versus cavalry. Ding one, two guys and you're overrun.

To be honest, I tend to agree. 1d4+1 just isn't a whole lot of damage, even if it's guaranteed to hit. It's the equivalent of putting a laser sight on a .22 pistol.

You make a good argument for the crossbow - for mundane ranged weapons in general, really - versus the wand. Sure, the wand hits automatically, but with 15-20 crossbows for the same price, the odds are pretty good that at least one bolt will hit. Color me convinced.

Okay, then: if not wands, then what? Let's build a better crossbow!

Forge of War mentions self-loading crossbows; I imagine such a weapon would probably look something like the so-called repeating crossbow, with a magazine of bolts fitted to the top of it. It wouldn't be an exotic weapon, though, since the magic (Unseen Servant? Animate Object?) of the weapon would be doing the reloading, not the user.

Still, it's just a crossbow. It lacks the armor-penetrating power of a bullet*, which is what I was looking for--something analogous to a firearm without actually being a firearm. Brilliant energy is simply too expensive to use on anything, and the fact that it would be unable to affect undead or constructs (although it should work against warforged, as they are living constructs) limits its usefulness anyways. Maybe as a sniper-type weapon?

Hmm...a "special forces" sniper with a couple of True Strike scrolls (and a level in Wizard or a high UMD skill to use them) would be simply devastating!

I suppose for the common mudslogger, armor-piercing ability isn't as important isn't important since his main opposition - other mudsloggers - aren't going to be wearing much armor to begin with. As for the heavy infantry and heavy cavalry, well...hopefully there's a similar unit nearby when they attack, I suppose.

I'd rather deploy wands of obscuring mist or mage armor as standard equip/ "crew-served" weapons, if I had the option.

Obscuring Mist would be incredibly useful on a battlefield, especially for a 1st level spell.

(*I realize that both longbows and crossbows were pretty efficient at penetrating armor, but 3rd edition rules don't reflect that. I'm thinking of houseruling both weapons as being ranged touch attack weapons, maybe giving the crossbow a -2 to hit, and making the longbow an exotic weapon like it should be--IIRC, the main reason firearms were adopted was because they were easier to learn and use than an English longbow.)

 

[Hellcow]

No mention of that in FoW, though.

Not entirely true.

The warforged entry in FoW states (page 101) "Even the rawest warforged deployed in battle is a trained fighter rather than a mere warrior, which helped to justify the expense of a construct soldier." This is born out in the following stat blocks. Meanwhile, the earlier sections on the armies of the Five Nations do present most common soldiers as having levels in warrior or even commoner.

So FoW specifically calls out that all warforged - even the "rawest" - use PC class levels, which in Eberron is a remarkable thing.

Meanwhile, the warforged dragonshards - which have to be approved by WotC design and are technically canon - says:

The warforged is born a blank slate, but it possesses a voracious appetite for knowledge. Just as the mind of a human child is more flexible than that of an adult, in its first few months a warforged possesses an astonishing ability to learn and adapt. A warforged may begin with no knowledge of the battlefield. But many Cannith instructors claim that the knowledge seems to be hidden beneath the surface, just waiting to be unlocked -- that within a few months of training, a warforged soldier may outstrip the skills of his teacher. The warforged must be shown the path to walk, but after taking its first steps, a warforged often picks up speed, learning skills in mere months that a human might take years to master.

After the first few months, however, the warforged's thought patterns crystallize, fixing on the path it has chosen. At this point, it is essentially an adult: It possesses the skills it needs to perform its chosen task, and while it can still learn new skills, this takes just as much time as it would for a human or an elf.

Personally, I don't see FoW as posing a serious conflict with the dragonshards. Both state that the warforged use PC classes, reflecting a remarkable level of skill. FoW states that "even the rawest" warforged - to my mind, one forced into service without taking full advantage of that "chrysalis" period - is a first level fighter. But if the trainers take the time to USE that chrysalis period, when the warforged is capable of learning at a rapid rate, the result is a character with two levels in a PC class (if a PC class is desired).

So in my opinion, warforged always use the elite array and have maximum hit points at first level, helping to increase their value. *I* personally maintain that most warforged found on the field were at least second level, and this is born out in adventures and sourcebooks that I write. FoW simply says that even the rawest warforged is superior to the typical human soldier; it's up to you to decide how many "raw" soldiers were sold and how many went through the chrysalis training.

As for the gun issue, I'm going to stay out of it - you can find my opinions on older threads. With that said, improving crossbows is a fine thing to explore!

 

[Someone]

I don't think you should limit yourselves to gunpowder and cannons; other mixtures of magic and technology are possible. As an example, I'm picturing a lance-like device that generates a small explosion or ball of fire at the tip that deals 2d6 or 3d6 damage, Reflex half; it uses alchemical ammo similar to alchemist fire. That'll be a reasonable weapon if properly costed (PCs would have better options with traditional weapon at medium-high levels, and would be too pricey for 1st or 2nd level PCs, and would be a extraordinary weapon for massed elite infantry or cavalry)

 

[joshhg]

Something I would like to point out is the development of spells. Mr. Baker has mentioned on occasion that nothing says that all of the spells in the PH are new or old. So I say that in addition to magical weapons and warforged, new spells, such as magic missle, were developed.

As has been mentioned, there has been almost no technical development. It all has been in the field of magic. So sure, a gun is great. But so is lightning bolt, fireball, and magic missle. And with enternal wands, you only need one wand and one caster to completely wreck a battle plan.

Also, warforged come with something better than PC class levels or not needing food (and thus no food lines to be targeted) or sleep (so they can repair themselfs at night and it is hard to ambush them) or much rest (all night march). They come with pre-build in armor that cost thousands of GP.

PS: None of this is my idea, just things I've heard on other threads.

 

[Hellcow]

Eh, just a few thoughts.

In general I agree that wands would be specialist weapons similar to rocket launchers or mortar - used by specialists attached to a squad, but not carried by common soldiers. Beyond this, I'll note that a few large-scale weapons have been suggested in the past that just got overlooked in FoW. According to the ECS, Zilargo did provide Breland with "elemental weapons" towards the end of the Last War. These have never been clearly defined, but in my opinion are artillery channeling the power of elementals - not using alchemical substances (though the Zil are skilled artificers as well) or firing solid shot, but things like water cannons or flamethrowers. The Dreaming Dark novels also talk about siege staves, which I was seeing as tree-trunk scale staves sacrificing mobility for increased range and area of effect. DD also mentions the use of blast disks (from Heroes of Battle)

I'm a firm believer in the idea that war breeds innovation. We know that the Last War has been responsible for the development of warforged, eternal wands, and airships (though rarely used in the war itself, certainly it was hoped that they could be - and finding a safer form of travel was also a paramount concern). I'll also assert that *I* believe that the Last War has produced a host of new spells. This includes spells from non-core books like the Spell Compendium or Heroes of Battle, but there's no reason to assume that thhe wizards of Galifar knew all of the spells listed in the Player's Handbook one hundred years ago. Perhaps the magi of Aerenal or the ancient giants knew the secrets of sending, but it's entirely possible that until the Last War, the only people in the Five Nations who could do this were the House Sivis heirs with the Greater Dragonmark of Scribing. From chain lightning to something as simple as wind wall, it's possible that spells we take for granted were developed by the people of Khorvaire during the Last War... and subsequently stolen by spies of opposing nations or duplicated after they'd been seen in the field.

 

[Hellcow]

Something I would like to point out is the development of spells. Mr. Baker has mentioned on occasion that nothing says that all of the spells in the PH are new or old...

Funny you should mention that...

 

[Aeric]

You're assuming that the cost of a musket in the real world has any relevance to the cost in the DMG. The DMG price seems to be based on presumed rarity as much as on actual cost to manufacture. In a world like Eberron, you could assume that mass production techniques would make guns much cheaper.

Fair enough. I have no clue what a musket (or arquebus, etc.) cost to produce in the real world at the time. I was simply going by what was in the DMG.

The real question is whether or not firearms would ever evolve. From the 14th to the 16th centuries, real world armies used a mixture of cavalry, cannon, firearms, crossbows, pikes and longbows. Things changed gradually over hundreds of years. There was no "Eureka!" moment when everybody suddenly started using firearms to the exclusion of everything else.

I agree. This thread isn't really about guns in Eberron, though. I have guns in my Eberron, and I'm perfectly happy with them. This thread is more about a "what if" scenario. What if the great minds of Eberron completely sidestepped the development of gunpowder (or its alchemical equivalent) because they found something just as good, if not better? With magic, anything is possible. My goal is to come up with some ideas for what that "anything" might be.