Ebberon - If not guns, then what?

[Eldragon]

I keep hearing variations like this and I don't get it. Why?

Clearly D&D science isn't the same as in our world because many of those alchemical items don't work in our world. Why is it necessarily true that if you mix the ingredients of gunpowder that it will work the same? Perhaps all you get is a little puff of smoke and nothing else. Maybe nothing happens at all.

I hear "they must have discovered it," but what if it isn't there to discover?

I guess that depends on your interpretation of the setting. I've always believed that physics/chemistry applies as normal, unless otherwise noted (or interfered with magic). If you want to say if you mix charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter in D&D nothing happens, Great! its an entirely fictional game after all. It just seems to me some artificer discovered gunpowder in Eberron, said "well, thats neat, but useless" and went back to crafting wands.

Personally I like the idea of the artificer creating fireworks, and flares. Since magical fire abounds, having mundane gunpowder does not "break" the game. Excluding cannons/firearms, gunpowder products does not even change the "feel" of the setting.

 

[WayneLigon]

This creates a loop accelerating the object to terminal velocity. When ready to fire, position the second gate pointing towards the target. Instant ultra-cannonball!
... Works just like a firearm, but would do far more damage than a musket.

The thing is, it's still just terminal velocity, which ain't all that great. the terminal part in that means that it stops accelerating after a short period and never goes any higher. It would be no different than teleporting a bunch of iron spheres up a couple hundred feet and letting them rain down on the enemy. It would do some damage of course and people hit by them would probably die, but it's not 'knocking down a castle wall' damage. Even a catapult imparts more energy to a rock than merely dropping it.

(I'd have a table with comparisons but apparently 'cannonballs' are used for every physics experiment example on the web, and I'm not wading through 15+ pages to find out what the actual muzzle velocity of a cannonball was).

The gun example is the same thing; it would be like you dropped a little lead ball on them from the top of a building. It might sting a lot, but probably wouldn't do much damage at all. It would actually be better to throw the bullet at them if I remember correctly.

Back on topic

Now, one thing I seem to remember - and this is from a long time ago so I might be getting the facts wrong - is that the gun really only started to take off as a really useful weapon of war once we invented the concept of interchangeable parts. It was a huge advantage to take my Boston-made gun into a gunsmith in Charleston and be able to buy a new trigger off the shelf so to speak.

If I remember correctly - and I wish Hellcow were still in the thread to correct me if I'm wrong - Eberron, for all the mention of factories and the like, has not invented two key things: The assembly line and the concept of interchangeable parts. Everything from swords to airships is still made by crafters. There might be a lot of them working in series sometimes, but each item is still technically unique. A gun made by one guy in Sharn would have to be taken back to that same guy for repairs. This is another reason guns are so expensive when they first start out.

 

[Eldragon]

The thing is, it's still just terminal velocity, which ain't all that great. the terminal part in that means that it stops accelerating after a short period and never goes any higher. It would be no different than teleporting a bunch of iron spheres up a couple hundred feet and letting them rain down on the enemy. It would do some damage of course and people hit by them would probably die, but it's not 'knocking down a castle wall' damage. Even a catapult imparts more energy to a rock than merely dropping it.

Completely correct. Which is why I stipulated "Don't take the above too seriously, its just an example..."

The Ring gates are a running joke in our group because at some point in a campaign many years ago someone used them to propel halflings over the castle walls. Of course, never underestimate the amount of damage an ill tempered halfling can do.

 

[Kurotowa]

I don't buy that the idea of propelling a metal ball with a pipe and an explosion is all that far fetched.

Then you need to study your tech history. While the basic principle is fine, and Asia has been using it for fireworks for forever, there's a very significant jump to cannons and guns. Gunpowder itself took a very long time to reach weapons grade; determining exactly which ingredients are the active ones and which are in there out of rote, developing ways to refine those active ingredients to purer forms (aka the start of modern chemistry), a long process of adjusting the ingredient ratio to the most effective balance, hell even discovering the most effective SHAPE of powder grain. Plus you've got all the issues with storage and transportation so your supply doesn't explode early or get wet and become useless, matters of supply for the raw materials, and the question of just who is doing all this work. And that's all just the gunpowder, cannons and then guns went through an even longer and messier evolution that took centuries.

The thing is, you can't just have a bright idea one day and invent a gun, any more than you could invent an iPhone before the transistor existed. You need all the many years of prior work on gunpowder chemistry and cannon physics in order to create a gun that's even close to battle worthy. And those don't exist in Eberron. When they needed a siege weapon to break fortifications, instead of inventing cannons they invented warforged titans and magical ballistas. Instead of creating units of elite riflemen, they have units of elite Magewrights with Eternal Wands of Magic Missile. (I do note everyone is leaving Eternal Wands off their calculations.) All the same tactical needs can be filled with existing magical technology.

 

[WayneLigon]

Completely correct. Which is why I stipulated "Don't take the above too seriously, its just an example..."

I know I thought it was just interesting.

The Ring gates are a running joke in our group because at some point in a campaign many years ago someone used them to propel halflings over the castle walls. Of course, never underestimate the amount of damage an ill tempered halfling can do.

Now that would work if you were close. Halflings with balloons strapped to them like a martian landing capsule.. hmm. Another thing that would wreck absolute havoc would be to put one end at the bottom of a waterfall and then just toss the other ring inside the castle itself. I doubt that anyone could get near enough to the second ring to do anything about it before most of the place simply floods out.

 

[zen_hydra]

Kurotowa, Eternal Wands require a UMD trained user, and even then they are prohibitively expensive.

 

[zen_hydra]

Now that would work if you were close. Halflings with balloons strapped to them like a martian landing capsule.. hmm. Another thing that would wreck absolute havoc would be to put one end at the bottom of a waterfall and then just toss the other ring inside the castle itself. I doubt that anyone could get near enough to the second ring to do anything about it before most of the place simply floods out.

Careful now! You are now treading the slippery slope of adding logic and tactics to a D&D world. Continuing down this path will lead to nothing but grief as all of your campaigns castled are undermined by earth elemental sappers.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

Eternal Wands require a UMD trained user, and even then they are prohibitively expensive.

For the sake of argument, no, they don't. They require a UMD trained user or someone capable of casting arcane spells. In Eberron, you have an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic: the magewright. Forge of War lists level one magewrights as being present in small numbers in armies precisely as wand users; essentially, that one level of magewright is more "wand operator" than anything else.

They require a SPECIALIZED user, but you can still have a 1st-level NPC-class character capable of using a wand.

 

[zen_hydra]

For the sake of argument, no, they don't. They require a UMD trained user or someone capable of casting arcane spells. In Eberron, you have an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic: the magewright. Forge of War lists level one magewrights as being present in small numbers in armies precisely as wand users; essentially, that one level of magewright is more "wand operator" than anything else.

They require a SPECIALIZED user, but you can still have a 1st-level NPC-class character capable of using a wand.

This still doesn't make eternal wands comparable to firearms. You can teach a conscripted peasent to fire a gun. You need a highly educated specialist (magewright) to use an eternal wand.

 

[Aeric]

This still doesn't make eternal wands comparable to firearms. You can teach a conscripted peasent to fire a gun. You need a highly educated specialist (magewright) to use an eternal wand.

Plus you can only fire an eternal wand twice a day, which is something that everyone seems to overlook. It might be useful for fireballs, which you don't necessarily need as many of in a battle, or something like phantom steed or mage armor, which last for hours, but as a man-to-man combat weapon, it is completely impractical.