Eberron as Call of Cthulhu

[Alzrius]

If you check the latest "Dragonshards" article on the WotC website, you'll notice that it talks about religion in Eberron. One of the major points is the distance of the gods.

In Eberron, you can't ever reach the gods. They aren't on any known plane, and apparently even Outsiders have no direct evidence that they exist (divine magic notwithstanding, more below).

Add this in to the idea that you can be more than one alignment-step away from a god's alignment to get spells, and that they don't rebuke or stop supporting priests who betray their ethos, and you already have a great setup for a Lovecraftian game.

Maybe the gods are dead, or never existed in the first place...perhaps now, those spells are coming from something great and old...

 

[Krieg]

You know this thread has gotten me thinking.

I've been sitting here with Eberron & Grim Tales trying to figure out how I am going use each one.

Eberron is conceptually very interesting, but I'm not sure I want to use it for "vanilla" D&D, likewise I really like many of the mechanics in Grim Tales but don't really have a campaign to fit it into right now...

Hmm...

Perhaps a marriage of the two is exactly what I have been looking for!

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas on whether you'd run or play a game like this?

That's a brilliant idea! I've been looking for a D&D setting to mix with the Cthulhu Mythos for quite some time, and I also plan to buy Eberron as soon as I can get my hands on it - but it hadn't occurred me to combine the two until now.

There's another parallel: Eberron draws inspiration from the "pulp" genre of the 1920s and 1930s - the same time Lovecraft was writing his stories! So it ought to be fairly easy to get the same feel...

But I agree that the Sanity system needs to be adjusted a bit (I only know the version from Cthulhu d20 - are there any differences between that and the UA version?) Perhaps it might be possible to come up with some Sanity loss scheme based on the challenge rating of the creature relative to the character levels - after all, how Sanity-shattering can a creature be if the PCs know they can beat it without trying hard?

And of course, there's the question how Sanity loss would affect PCs like the Warforged, who probably have a quite alien psychology (I know little to nothing about the other new PC races)...

Any thoughts?

 

[Krieg]

But I agree that the Sanity system needs to be adjusted a bit (I only know the version from Cthulhu d20 - are there any differences between that and the UA version?) Perhaps it might be possible to come up with some Sanity loss scheme based on the challenge rating of the creature relative to the character levels - after all, how Sanity-shattering can a creature be if the PCs know they can beat it without trying hard?

This is where Grim Tales comes into play. GT contains an alternate Horror/Insanity system that uses to the EL of the encounter as a modifier to the DC of the horror check. When to apply horror checks is at the discretion of the DM.

OGL Horror has a similar system that could also work.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Forgive the soapbox stance, but IMHO, the idea of (in)Sanity put forth by CofC has no place in a D&D universe. The philosophy that informs Lovecraft's idea of the disaster that occurs in the human mind when it encounters the Mythos is based strongly on the assumption that modern man (or man of the 1920s) inhabits a psychological universe that rests strongly on several assumptions: Humanocentrism, the dominance of (human) technology, civilization, and (Western) morality, and certain scientific truths. The ability of creatures, strange settings, or even dreams to warp sanity in Lovecraft's universe has far more to do with the fact that they violate our basic assumptions about the universe than that they're so ugly-looking that we get scared. Even the non-Euclidean geometries of R'lyeh cause "Sanity loss," largely because men just can't accept the notion that there can be angles greater than 180 degrees. The argument can be made that even we, who inhabit a universe not distant from HPL's characters, are probably less vulnerable to "SAN loss" than those characters. The excellent post-Lovecraft story "Discovery of the Ghooric Zone" is all about this; the story is based around the idea that in the far future, physics, biology, and society, as well as the sheer flow of information, are subject to such radical change and distortion from the strict norms of the 1920s that the protagonists of "Ghooric Zone" welcome HPL's horrors with wonder rather than terror.

What this rant is getting at is that the D&D universe doesn't really have the boundaries of HPL's modernity. D&D characters inhabit their universe with the tacit understanding that pretty much everything is possible, that even the worst horrors and most eldritch beauty are quite imaginable, and that humans and human ideas, civilization, and psychology are far from the dominant, let alone sole, intelligent paradigm. Given all this, it's hard to imagine what would make a D&D PC, who fully expects to encounter outer-planar demons, divine manifestations, grafted, mutated life, and incessant defiance of the laws of science (which don't even really have meaning in D&D), go ga-ga. Why would PCs take San loss from seeing a shoggoth when grey oozes and gelatinous cubes are reasonably common and expected sights? Is a deep one intrinsically less disturbing than a changeling, shifter, or even half-orc, all of which would invoke the same sense of disturbing difference, frightful miscegenation, and inhumanity if they showed up in an HPL story?

CofC d20 sort of addresses this with the Sanity resistance rules in the D&D conversion section, but the fact is that the gap between D&D PCs and CofC Investigators is dramatically greater than a few points of San resistance can demonstrate.

In short, if I were to do a CofC campaign in Eberron, I'd use Sanity loss only for special magical effects (including, perhaps, the effect of beholding one of the Great Old Ones or a similarly-powerful Mythos creature), or reading weird books. What I would do is run it as a proper horror campaign; in other words, make the players frightened. Setting, narration, and encounter design can be used quite easily to do this; one simple way of changing the tone from pulp adventure to pulp horror is to make foes MUCH tougher than the PCs, emphasize detective work over combat (and make combat a disastrous option), and work at bringing out the grotesque, disturbing, and despair-causing elements in your game.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Forgive the soapbox stance, but IMHO, the idea of (in)Sanity put forth by CofC has no place in a D&D universe. The philosophy that informs Lovecraft's idea of the disaster that occurs in the human mind when it encounters the Mythos is based strongly on the assumption that modern man (or man of the 1920s) inhabits a psychological universe that rests strongly on several assumptions: Humanocentrism, the dominance of (human) technology, civilization, and (Western) morality, and certain scientific truths. The ability of creatures, strange settings, or even dreams to warp sanity in Lovecraft's universe has far more to do with the fact that they violate our basic assumptions about the universe than that they're so ugly-looking that we get scared. Even the non-Euclidean geometries of R'lyeh cause "Sanity loss," largely because men just can't accept the notion that there can be angles greater than 180 degrees.

I disagree. Lovecraft presents a universe where science and magic are both wrong - they are both flimsy constructs of a belief system that make us think we know how the universe works. Which is wrong, of course - our primitive brains are literally incapable of truly understanding the universe. That doesn't mean that some humans haven't come close to such an understanding in the past - but in the process, they have become something both more and less than human.

The argument can be made that even we, who inhabit a universe not distant from HPL's characters, are probably less vulnerable to "SAN loss" than those characters. The excellent post-Lovecraft story "Discovery of the Ghooric Zone" is all about this; the story is based around the idea that in the far future, physics, biology, and society, as well as the sheer flow of information, are subject to such radical change and distortion from the strict norms of the 1920s that the protagonists of "Ghooric Zone" welcome HPL's horrors with wonder rather than terror.

Again, I disagree. This is nothing more than our own hubris. We believe we know all the answers, unlike those primitives back in the 1920, and that we are so jaded that nothing can shock us. But we are conveniently forgetting that they believed the same about earlier times, and have been proven wrong - and I have no doubt that we will be proven wrong some day, too. Perhaps sooner than you think.

The only time when we will truly know all the answers will be when mankind has become "free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy". But then it will be too late - and it seems like that time is fast approaching.

Incidentally if you are interested in learning how the Cthulhu Mythos fits into our modern times, pick up Delta Green and its follow-up Delta Green: Countdown from Pagan Publishing - these books are absolutely brilliant.

What this rant is getting at is that the D&D universe doesn't really have the boundaries of HPL's modernity. D&D characters inhabit their universe with the tacit understanding that pretty much everything is possible, that even the worst horrors and most eldritch beauty are quite imaginable, and that humans and human ideas, civilization, and psychology are far from the dominant, let alone sole, intelligent paradigm.

Do they really? Sure, they hear tales and myths of other places and strange monsters, but deep down they don't really believe that the world could be as bad as that. As long as the sun rises each morning and the seasons of the year turn onwards, most people will believe these tales to be just that - tales. Sure, some brave wizards and adventures might go out and search for the strangeness, but there's a reason why they are widely considered to be excentric. Mad, even.

And even they tend to have their own paradigm on how the world works. I mean, take the clerics of Eberron. They believe that the gods they are praying to exist. What is if they are proven wrong - or worse, discover the true nature of what they have been worshipping? Same goes for wizards. If they encounter any weird phenomena, they expect them to be, well, magical. They expect their spells (detect magic, dispel magic, anti-magic field, etc.) to work against them. What if they are proven wrong, and suddenly strange spiders crawl under their skin?

Given all this, it's hard to imagine what would make a D&D PC, who fully expects to encounter outer-planar demons, divine manifestations, grafted, mutated life, and incessant defiance of the laws of science (which don't even really have meaning in D&D), go ga-ga. Why would PCs take San loss from seeing a shoggoth when grey oozes and gelatinous cubes are reasonably common and expected sights? Is a deep one intrinsically less disturbing than a changeling, shifter, or even half-orc, all of which would invoke the same sense of disturbing difference, frightful miscegenation, and inhumanity if they showed up in an HPL story?

It all depends on the presentation of the GM. He absolutely must convey that the PCs have encountered something absolutely alien. Obviously, not all Lovecraft critters are equally suitable for this. Deep Ones? Probably not. Shoggoths? Probably - they are much, much more malevolent than mere oozes. Colors out of Space? Now you are talking.

There are quite a few creatures in Lovecraft canon that would work as written - and quite a few D&D critters that could work as Lovecraft critters (like destrachans, for example). As long as the players understand that these creatures "don't belong here" it should work out fine...

CofC d20 sort of addresses this with the Sanity resistance rules in the D&D conversion section, but the fact is that the gap between D&D PCs and CofC Investigators is dramatically greater than a few points of San resistance can demonstrate.

Actually, I dislike the Sanity resistance rules from CoC d20, because they pretty soon make the PCs immune to Sanity loss from pretty much everything. I agree that mere orcs shouldn't trigger Sanity loss, but there are plenty of creatures that should, even at higher levels.

I've read an alternative rule somewhere about getting used to monsters - if you succeed in a number of Sanity checks versus a certain creature equal to the maximum possible Sanity loss, you are now immune to Sanity loss from that creature. Something like that might work...

 

[zcthu3]

I also thought about a CoC-Eberron crossover and think that just making it so that D&D PCs automatically pass Sanity checks is the easiest way. Thus, most 'normal' D&D things, that beings in such a setting woulds expect to see or know exist, don't cost SP. Those things that are truely bizarre (GOOs, OGs, Shoggoths etc.) still cost Sanity Points - but at a reduced rate, as people - especially the heroic adventurers of Eberron, expect to see odd and frightening thinsg - just not that odd and frightening.

 

[Baron Opal]

Character Assumptions

There is also a different assumption on the mettle of the protagonist in CoC vs. DnD. I think that in most cases the adventurer in DnD is a cut above the common man. In CoC the adventurer is the common man, placed in unusual circumstances. DnD adventurers, particularly Wizards and Clerics, are more robust psychologically and often come across horrible scenes and vile characters.

That said, you can have a great horror game in DnD. Rather than using Sanity rules, I find that give abberations and other Cthulu-esque creatures a fear aura quite useful. DC scales with HD and you have the scale of Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked -> Terrified -> Mad. Terrified is being Panicked and being unable to flee or defend yourself and Mad starts at catatonia and develops when (if) the character has time to recover.

Religions tend to be dark and high level priests become sinister. Low level clerics become disallusioned when their gain power as distasteful secrets are revealed. I usually have one religion that is "pure" that is a hero-cult or more Zen than the usual fare.

Baron Opal

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

There is also a different assumption on the mettle of the protagonist in CoC vs. DnD. I think that in most cases the adventurer in DnD is a cut above the common man. In CoC the adventurer is the common man, placed in unusual circumstances. DnD adventurers, particularly Wizards and Clerics, are more robust psychologically and often come across horrible scenes and vile characters.

Again, I disagree. Most of the protagonists of Lovecraftian stories were intellectuals. Smart people. People who believed that rationality and logic would help them cope. And in the end, they were betrayed by their beliefs.

And that's actually represented in the CoC rules (the original ones, at least) - their Education stat is much higher than that of "average" people...

And if I may again turn to Delta Green, in that game the investigators are playing federal law-enforcement officials - or even professional soldiers. Again, they are supposed to be better equipped to deal with the horrific than ordinary citizens - after all, they often encounter fairly horrifying situations as part of their regular jobs.

But in the end, that too only serves to make their implosion much more messy. In the end, most investigators, no matter how self-confident or capable they might be in the beginning, wind up nuts - or dead. Only few survive with their beliefs intact, and even they are going to have a few mental scars...

 

[ruleslawyer]

I disagree. Lovecraft presents a universe where science and magic are both wrong - they are both flimsy constructs of a belief system that make us think we know how the universe works. Which is wrong, of course - our primitive brains are literally incapable of truly understanding the universe. That doesn't mean that some humans haven't come close to such an understanding in the past - but in the process, they have become something both more and less than human.

Where does HPL even begin to get at the idea that "magic" is wrong? Quite the opposite: Magic is the alien science of the Elder Gods and GOO; The Dreams in the Witch-House is an excellent example of this.

As for "more and less than human": What do you think a 10th-level wizard, or even a non-PC-classed dwarf, elf, or orc, is?

Again, I disagree. This is nothing more than our own hubris. We believe we know all the answers, unlike those primitives back in the 1920, and that we are so jaded that nothing can shock us. But we are conveniently forgetting that they believed the same about earlier times, and have been proven wrong - and I have no doubt that we will be proven wrong some day, too. Perhaps sooner than you think.

I was largely bringing up the differences between the '20s and our time as an extreme example of what I was suggesting. However, the gulf between our universe and the D&D universe is far, far vaster.

Do they really? Sure, they hear tales and myths of other places and strange monsters, but deep down they don't really believe that the world could be as bad as that. As long as the sun rises each morning and the seasons of the year turn onwards, most people will believe these tales to be just that - tales. Sure, some brave wizards and adventures might go out and search for the strangeness, but there's a reason why they are widely considered to be excentric. Mad, even.

Excuse me? Karrnath has undead armies, House artificers create flying ships, breathe life into constructs, and bind shapeless, sentient beings of pure elemental energy into magic items; everyone on Eberron knows this. It's not a "tales and myths" thing; don't confuse the real-world Middle Ages with the realm of fantasy.

More to the point, the above only even arguably applies in any manner if you're talking about non-adventurer types. Unless you're planning on running an adventure with 1st-level commoner farmers, your point just doesn't apply. AFAIK, most D&D parties use PC-classed characters, like, say, "wizards and adventures" [sic].

And even they tend to have their own paradigm on how the world works. I mean, take the clerics of Eberron. They believe that the gods they are praying to exist. What is if they are proven wrong - or worse, discover the true nature of what they have been worshipping? Same goes for wizards. If they encounter any weird phenomena, they expect them to be, well, magical. They expect their spells (detect magic, dispel magic, anti-magic field, etc.) to work against them. What if they are proven wrong, and suddenly strange spiders crawl under their skin?

The problem is that their paradigm isn't as brittle as ours. I mean, what does "magical" mean? The definitions of magic are pretty unlimited, covering a vast myriad of signs and wonders. Magic can cause things to fly, transport demons to do the caster's will, tame dragons, twist minds, warp bodies, and an infinity of other things. Moreover, magic is totally unlike science: It's neither bounded by particular theories and expectations nor foolproof. Any wizard knows that spells can't be "expect[ed] to work" against everything; enough creatures have SR to put that assumption out of currency. Moreover, "magic" covers an infinitude of circumstances and options.

It all depends on the presentation of the GM. He absolutely must convey that the PCs have encountered something absolutely alien. Obviously, not all Lovecraft critters are equally suitable for this. Deep Ones? Probably not. Shoggoths? Probably - they are much, much more malevolent than mere oozes. Colors out of Space? Now you are talking.

Shoggoths? How are these more insanity-inducing than "mere oozes"? Because they're intelligent and malevolent? Take a look at the alkilith, or the psionic gray ooze, or the mimic, all very common creatures. The Colour out of Space? Try an invisible stalker on for size.

There are quite a few creatures in Lovecraft canon that would work as written - and quite a few D&D critters that could work as Lovecraft critters (like destrachans, for example). As long as the players understand that these creatures "don't belong here" it should work out fine...

And what "doesn't belong" in a universe that has fiends, dragons, daelkyr, and gelatinous cubes, exactly?

You have to change a LOT to make Sanity a critical issue in D&D campaigns. The alienist option from the 2e Spells and Magic book gets at the idea; insanity as a magical effect is another way to handle it. But the general themes governing Lovecraftian insanity really just don't work in an inherently mystical, boundless, monster- and magic-inhabited universe, unless you draw strict boundaries delineating what is "normal" vis-a-vis monsters or magic. And that really messes with the basic assumptions underlying a campaign setting like Eberron.