ECL Equivalents of higher attribute selection

[Greybar]

Out growth of:
Point buy vs. 4d6

Movining in areas no longer a D&D Rules forum appropriate...

If 25 point buy is standard, is 28 point buy the equivalent of +1 ECL? Probably not, it's not enough of a boost. But there are people around here that use very high point buy, apparently. Do they find that their characters are ECL+2 or +4 over the standard?

As Elder Basilisk mentioned in the other thread:

Point buy also allows some interesting options that I want to try out next time I run a game. I'm thinking of something like allowing higher point buys at the cost of +1 or +2 ECL (for the young and inexperienced but very gifted type characters), allowing +ecl races at no ECL if they live with lower point buy, and possibly even allowing characters to start with extra levels of NPC classes at the cost of lower stats (thus simulating the experienced campaigner or warrior/shepherd archetype who is travelling with the young heroes; I haven't figured out whether I'd treat it as a negative ECL or whether I'd just let the player increase his stats to normal point buy levels as he gained experience that would normally cause him to level (simulating the warrior-turned barkeep regaining his lost muscle and constitution)). I like the idea of having a more or less balanced party of unbalanced individuals--something I think point buy can do but rolling can't.

so, thoughts?

John

 

[gpetruc]

If 25 point buy is standard, is 28 point buy the equivalent of +1 ECL?

IMHO no. A half celestial (ECL +3) gets lots of bonuses to stats and cool abilities.
Maybe a +2 to two ability scores is, but simply +3 point buy is not.

(a maximum of a +3 Str is worse than a level of fighter. not to mention spellcaster levels)

 

[Crothian]

I think this is really going to promote min maxing. If 28 point buy is +1, I can see players doing for 27 since it would be +0.

 

[Greybar]

Crothian,

I don't see this idea as a free-form "choose your points" for the players. There are multiple approaches:

1) Players can choose one of a few platforms (25pt, 28pt, 32pt) as part of character creation and take a penalty/bonus.

but more importantly:

2) GMs can give all of their players exactly the same point buy, but have a better understanding of the impact that causes. It sounds like some (particularly newbie) GMs may have allowed their players 32 point buys, and are then frustrated that the CR4 big boss guy wasn't enough to challenge the level 1 party.

Plus all of the neat ideas that Elder Basilisk mentions.

John

 

[Crothian]

I just don't think it's this simple. Attributes that are high are good, but alone won't make character that much better. Plus as the levels increase high attributes mean less as other bonuses are availible.

 

[Conaill]

I'll just repost my comment from the other thread...

I played around with the online ECL calculators one day to see what ECL +1 is equivalent to in terms of point-buy, and came up with 10-20 points.

25 points ~ +0 ECL
40 points ~ +1 ECL
55 points ~ +2 ECL
70 points ~ +3 ECL

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I was actually thinking something along the lines of:

20 points: -1 ECL
28 points: +0 ECL
36 points: +1 ECL

I'd probably stop there (and house rule the half-ogre to +2 or +3 ECL (whoever made it +1 ECL was smoking crack I tell you)). Higher ECL races get spell like abilities, dramatic ability score boosts, reach, and other things that make it rather difficult to properly balance them. And allowing really high point buy would quite possibly tempt players into doing something stupid. ("Look, I can have straight 18s for ECL +4. I'll go for it!" And then I'd have to deal with the guy whining that fireball is a save or die spells against a 5th level character with 14 hp or figuring out the hard way that casting a single magic missile at 5th level is a one way trip to loserdom even if your mage is stronger than the fighter).

I might also allow characters to take a level of a PC class or two levels of an NPC class for free if they started with 15 point buy attributes (I'd let players have a single free level of an NPC class at 20 point buy). PCs would then have their choice of retaining the extra classes (with a negative ECL that made them truly bonus levels) or using their first levels of experience to increase their stats to 28 points (buying off the negative ECL) and convert any NPC class levels to an appropriate PC class (warrior to fighter for instance).

I guess the challenge that the system will face is this: is an (effectively) ECL +1 20 point buy drow better than an ECL +1 36 point buy human? At first level? Certainly not? At tenth level? I'm not so sure anymore. At 20th level? Almost certainly. Then again, it would really depend upon what the characters set out to be. The 36 point buy human can have all of the same stats as the drow but replace one of the drow's 8's with an 18. That makes a big difference. Similarly, it's hard to make an effective anything with 20 point buy. You really need to make some serious sacrifices. So, on balance, I think that a skilled player could make an effective character either way. However, I think the ECL and the difference in stats would mean that it would take a very skilled player a lot of levels to get a character that was more effective than a well constructed straight up ECL 0 PH race 28 point buy character. And that's the way it should be.

 

[seasong]

Hm... I know that a fighter with STR 18, CON 18 is functionally +1 level, regardless of his other attributes. That's 32 points, so if you have 10s elsewhere, that would be 40 point buy for +1 ECL.

On the other hand, giving the same boost to a wizard or sorcerer doesn't have near the same effect. And giving 40 points to a rogue bumps him up 2-3 levels for skills, but has little to no impact on all of his cool special abilities.