ECL for Divnie Rank 0?

[Jolly Giant]

What do the clever people of these boards consider a suitable ECL for characters with Divine Rank 0?

I'm running a game that's starting to turn super-powerful... (It needs to, I plan to place the PCs at the frontline in a war between good and the evil deities!) At the moment the party is at lvl 22-24, but has gained divine rank 0 and now I'm wondering what ECL thay should be treated as.

Last session (they all gained a level at the end of that session - it lasted for 16 hours!) they defeated "The Father of the Stygian Wyrms"; a CR 35/36 (advanced) Styx Dragon. Ok, it really had them struggling for a while, but eventually the WIZ used a wish to get a bonus on his next check to beat the dragons SR (I gave him a +20 on that check, and with his Greater Spell Penetration-feat that gave him a 75% chance of success). Even so, the check failed...

He tried it again, and this time he hit the beast with a maximized, empowered "Otto's Irresistable Dance", making it dance for the next seven rounds. So they all hit it with everything they had for seven rounds! At the end of the seventh round of dancing, the character with the lowest initiative delivered the killing blow with his very last attack for the round...

So the five PCs beat a CR35 dragon, but only after a truely epic battle. They really had to struggle, but then they didn't have much time to prepare for battle either... I'm thinking CR 29 should be about right for them (I.E. ECL+6). Who agrees? Who disagrees? Who's tried running a divine rank 0 party and can share their experiences???

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Err, well ECL wasnt included for a reason wasnt it?
I dont have my ELH nearbye, being at work, So i cant break down what it offers.

Though i dont think it should affect their ECL or XP at all. If it should have then that would have been mentioned in the DDG.

Come to think of it, the whole Chosen shtick from FR also doesnt have an ECL, though it has a CR mod. I think that makes sense. Something divine granted such as this shouldnt penalize the PC. Especially when its a plot device or reward.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

PC, kudos on the method used to kill that dragon.
I can just imagine it now. The Pc's diving around this break dancing dragon.
Bwahahahah!

 

[Jolly Giant]

Thanks for posting ArthurQ!

As you said, they shouldn't be penalized for doing things right (obviously, they must have done SOMETHING right to have gained their current status... )

I guess ECL is probably the wrong term to use in this case (my bad, sorry...), what I'm really after is an idea of what sort of CR I should aim for in future encounters?

EDIT: They also used Otto's ID on the terrasque a few levels back They actually stood around laughing at it! This was after I doubled the terrasques HD and gave it the appropriate amount of epic feats...

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Wellll, you only need CR if you're gonna be granting something XP for fighting them. Right?

To calculate their XP you take their average level. So, unless you plan to give Xp to npc's who survive tangling with em, you dont really have to do much at all but gauge the difficulty of what you're gonna throw at em, right? That would be the Encounter Level (which is extrapolated from monter CR's) and is usually equal too or over the average level of the party :-D

I think you're doing everything right, just keep doing it.

If anything, the "best" thing to do, and remember this is only one opinion, is statistically completly ignore that they have Divine Rank zero for a while. Let them enjoy having that extra edge they normally wouldnt have and come into use.
A bit later on however, when the badguys catchon that they have that edge. Well then start looking to balance the scales with some dulling :-D

have fun!

PS: Technically ECL WAS the right term. Because you add the Level or ECL when getting the party average for XP or setting an encounter level. But as I said above, i dont think you need too, yet.

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

This is a tough one. You could easily come up with arguments for all of the divine characteristics gained at DR Zero to be way more than a +6 ECL, but CR is another story, as all of the benefits will most likely not be relevant to a single encounter. OTOH, many of the divine ability descriptions are neutered until DR1 is reached, so an ECL of +6 doesn't seem too out of line. But I am also of the opinion that most Savage Species ECL's were WAY too high. Sounds like a bit more playtesting is in order. Try them out on a CR 30 encounter and see if they can get through that without using multiple wishes...

 

[Jolly Giant]

Wellll, you only need CR if you're gonna be granting something XP for fighting them. Right?

What I meant was, what CR should I make their future encounters... I guess I'm just not making myself very clear today! To keep hitting them with CR23 stuff could be a boost ot their ego for a while, but would pretty soon get boring I'm afraid...

 

[Jolly Giant]

Try them out on a CR 30 encounter and see if they can get through that witout using multiple wishes...

I guess that's the only way to do it. I'll prepare a few encounters with varying CR and see how they turn out.

I was hoping however, that maybe someone on these boards had actually tried this and could share some of their experiences?

 

[Impeesa]

Upper_Krust could probably give you an answer to within two decimal places of precision. I'm sure he'll be along shortly, the topic name is like flashing the Bat-signal.

--Impeesa--

 

[Jolly Giant]

Upper_Krust could probably give you an answer to within two decimal places of precision. I'm sure he'll be along shortly, the topic name is like flashing the Bat-signal.

Ok, Upper_Krust, you reading this?

I'll make it a little tougher for you and give the full details of the party:

A fiendish dwarven lich clr 23

A half-fiend human brb/rog/ravager/blackguard (total class levels 23)

A drow rogue 21/Void Incarnate2

A fiendish human sor8/dragon disciple15

A fiendish greyelf wiz 23

All are divine rank zero. Obviously, a lot of what they get from their templates are rendered moot by their DR zero, and a lot of what the clr gained from his fiendish template is rendered moot by his lich template... So what CR would be right for future encounters???

(They gained divine rank 0 at lvl 21. The clr created his phylactery and turned lich at lvl 19. The fiendish and half-fiend templates were gained around lvl 16; they were gifts granted from their evil gods after a massive sacrificial ceremony. Among the stuff sacrificed were several holy weapons and other good-aligned items, a family of four wizards (lvl 11-19) and a few paladins... The ceremony took place in a temple devoted to uniting multiple evil races and deities before some 5000+ ogre, orc, goblinoid and kobold worshippers. It was performed by the blackguard, the lich and 12 other evil clerics. A memorable occation... )