ECL for Monster races who advance "By Character Class"?

[Lela]

How exactly is this figured? What about templates?

I'm betting this has shown up a thousand times on these boards (and will do so another thousand) but I need to make sure I have it straight.

 

[hong]

If you really mean ECL, what the advancement line in the stat block says has nothing to do with it. If you're going to have a monster race as a PC, you're probably going to give it class levels anyway regardless of the MM.

If you mean CR, first things first:

CR != ECL

Righty-o, now that that's out of the way: the CR for a monster with class levels is the monster's normal CR + however many class levels it has. Thus a 4th level ogre fighter is CR 2 + 4 = 6. If the monster has an NPC class, subtract 1. See the DMG, p.167.

 

[Lela]

So, for an NPC villian Umber Hulk/5th level Fighter, who was going to attack the party, it would be ECL 13. Correct?

And an NPC villian Nymph/Druid 4 would be ECL 10. Right?

Now, would any of this change if I were to roll the stats or use Point-buy method?

Here's another question, Nymph (MM 143) says that a Nymph "Can also replicate druid spells as 7th level casters." How would that factor in?

I realize that Nymphs don't advance by character class, but it's bound to come up.

 

[Xarlen]

Check out the DMG for ECLs of monsters. Just apply those. If you have the FRCS, it explains how ECLs work. But, let's look at it, real briefly.

As hong pointed out, CR and ECL are Not Equal. A remorhaz is a CR7, but they are Not Equipped to be played as a 7th level character.

Look at the Half dragon template. It adds +2 to the CR, however it's ECL is +3.

 

[Xarlen]

My suggestion would be to advance the Nymph's HD, which would advance her spells. If they don't advance by character class, then advance the HD.

 

[hong]

So, for an NPC villian Umber Hulk/5th level Fighter, who was going to attack the party, it would be ECL 13. Correct?

And an NPC villian Nymph/Druid 4 would be ECL 10. Right?

Now, would any of this change if I were to roll the stats or use Point-buy method?

Here's another question, Nymph (MM 143) says that a Nymph "Can also replicate druid spells as 7th level casters." How would that factor in?

I realize that Nymphs don't advance by character class, but it's bound to come up.

Oh dear, it doesn't seem to have sunk in. Let's try again, only I'll speak slowly and loudly, and wave my hands about. Hey, if it works for tourists, it might work here.

E C L  !=  C R
E C L  !=  C R
E C L  !=  C R

ECLs (Effective Character Levels) don't make sense for NPC villains. They only apply for PCs, because they have to do with experience awards and how fast a character advances. You probably mean CRs (Challenge Ratings), which measure how easy it is for a party to win a fight with a monster.

Yes, a 4th level nymph druid would be CR 10 by the book. A 5th level umber hulk fighter would be CR 12 (standard umber hulk is CR 7, + 5 fighter levels = 12).

 

[Lela]

As hong pointed out, CR and ECL are Not Equal.

This is part of what makes things so confusing. CR and ECL are !=. And yet, we are still supposed to add the CR of a monster to the # of class levels it has, just like we add the ECL to the number of class levels.

So, if we ran into a Centar PC, how would I assign experience? How would you determin when they level up?

Look at the Half dragon template. It adds +2 to the CR, however it's ECL is +3.

Where did you get that?


Hong: Part of what I meant with the Nymph was how would the spells come in? Would that mean that the Nymph in question would cast as an 11th Druid?

And no, I don't think is has sunk in. It doesn't seem to fit together quite right in my head.

 

[Xarlen]

Now that Hong has yelled, allow me to offer some explination.

CR is set up to be balanced with the creature vs. 4 PCs. A group of 4 7th level PCs should be evenly challanged with taking down an Umber Hulk.

ECLs are a way to balance a PC Playing a monster. A lot of monsters' ECLs would be Enormous, because of their abilities. As NPCs in a fight, those 'At Will' spell likes will likely only slightly come into play; they may get them off once or twice. Those immunities will only come into play once. However, if a PC picked up a Demon, how useful do you think that 'Teleport Without Error' is going to come up?

 

[Xarlen]

Look at the DMG page 22. There's a section there called 'Monsters as Races'. This applies to PCs only.

There is a chart that gives examples of ECLs.

 

[hong]

Hong: Part of what I meant with the Nymph was how would the spells come in? Would that mean that the Nymph in question would cast as an 11th Druid?

And no, I don't think is has sunk in. It doesn't seem to fit together quite right in my head.

Not a problem.

You are confusing HD and level advancement, CRs, and ECLs. These are related but quite distinct things.

A 4th level druid nymph has 7 HD (3d6 from nymph, 4d8 from class levels). This is just like multiclassing for ordinary characters, with the monster HD being treated as a "class". The abilities from the base monster and the class generally don't stack, just like with ordinary multiclassing. For example, a 3rd level sorc/4th level druid has a caster level of 3 for sorc spells, and 4 for druid spells; not 7 for everything. There are exceptions (BAB, saves and skills), but you know how multiclassing works in general, I'm sure.

The caster level for the nymph's druid spells, if we apply this rule strictly, would be 4th. However, things are messy here, and there is a precedent for stacking monster and class levels for the purpose of determining caster level (can't remember exactly where I read this). If we follow this precedent, the nymph's caster level for its druid spells would be 11th (7 for the nymph ability + 4 additional druid levels).

For the purposes of awarding XP, the nymph is treated as CR 10. The nymph is about as challenging to defeat as another monster of that CR (in theory). This has nothing to do with computing its abilities as such. CRs are rather iffy when it comes to class levels anyway, so there wouldn't be a problem in ratcheting it up or down depending on your own judgement.

ECL only comes into play if one of your players wants to play a nymph. Each monster has an ECL modifier, which is at least equal to its HD, and depending on its abilities, possibly a lot more. You add the ECL modifer to the actual class levels to determine how much XP to award. The bigger the ECL modifier, the higher level the character is determined to be, and so the less XP it gets. This is a way of keeping really powerful races in check, so that the other players in the group don't feel they're robbed of the limelight.

One of the Dragon issues had a list of ECL mods for every race in the MM. Some were okay, others were not so okay.