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ECL of dragons
- Thread starter poilbrun
- Start date
Fieari
Explorer
Upper Krust has a nice set of formula to derive the ECL of any given creature. Using version 5 of his ECL document, he gives the following ECLs for dragons.
The first number is the result of the formula with all factors. This involves fractional ECLs, as you might imagine. The second number is the "Golden Rule", which says "Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice." The golden rule also rounds down fractions.
The third number is the "Silver Rule", which says "These results show us that, using this system, at non-epic levels PCs have (on average) a 16% advantage over their monstrous peers. So if you wanted to be incredibly accurate you could multiply up to the first 20 points of a monsters CR by 85% (x 0.85) to redress class imbalance. This imbalance stops from CR 20 onwards, so for creatures of CR 20+ simply subtract 3 from the score; since that represents the 15% drop in the first 20 points of CR."
The silver rule is optional though, and the Golden Rule might be the best bet.
In general, although these numbers are excruciatingly accurate, you can simply say "Dragon ECL = 2x CR". In general, "non-dragon ECL = 3/2 CR". That's not 100% accurate in all cases, but it's a good general rule that works most of the time.
The first number is the result of the formula with all factors. This involves fractional ECLs, as you might imagine. The second number is the "Golden Rule", which says "Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice." The golden rule also rounds down fractions.
The third number is the "Silver Rule", which says "These results show us that, using this system, at non-epic levels PCs have (on average) a 16% advantage over their monstrous peers. So if you wanted to be incredibly accurate you could multiply up to the first 20 points of a monsters CR by 85% (x 0.85) to redress class imbalance. This imbalance stops from CR 20 onwards, so for creatures of CR 20+ simply subtract 3 from the score; since that represents the 15% drop in the first 20 points of CR."
The silver rule is optional though, and the Golden Rule might be the best bet.
In general, although these numbers are excruciatingly accurate, you can simply say "Dragon ECL = 2x CR". In general, "non-dragon ECL = 3/2 CR". That's not 100% accurate in all cases, but it's a good general rule that works most of the time.
Code:
Base Golden Silver
ECL Rule Rule
Dragon, Black:
Wyrmling 6.24 6 5
Very Young 9.69 9 8
Young 13.57 13 11
Juvenile 16.684 16 14
Young Adult 23.486 23 20
Adult 29.573 29 26
Mature Adult 34.923 33 30
Old 38.874 38 35
Very Old 43.732 42 39
Ancient 47.903 47 44
Wyrm 55.099 53 50
Great Wyrm 59.98 57 54
Dragon, Blue:
Wyrmling 9.115 9 7
Very Young 12.91 12 10
Young 16.515 16 14
Juvenile 22.26 22 19
Young Adult 28.311 27 24
Adult 35.114 33 30
Mature Adult 41.015 38 35
Old 44.265 42 39
Very Old 48.45 46 43
Ancient 55.899 52 49
Wyrm 60.41 57 54
Great Wyrm 65.416 61 58
Dragon, Green:
Wyrmling 8.21 7 6
Very Young 11.95 11 10
Young 15.6 15 13
Juvenile 20.99 20 17
Young Adult 26.786 26 23
Adult 33.77 31 28
Mature Adult 37.873 36 33
Old 42.802 40 37
Very Old 46.938 45 42
Ancient 54.26 51 48
Wyrm 58.61 55 52
Great Wyrm 63.504 60 57
Dragon, Red:
Wyrmling 10.41 10 8
Very Young 15.77 15 13
Young 20.47 19 16
Juvenile 23.924 23 20
Young Adult 32.046 30 27
Adult 36.998 34 31
Mature Adult 41.714 39 36
Old 48.965 45 42
Very Old 54.105 50 47
Ancient 59.345 55 52
Wyrm 63.911 59 56
Great Wyrm 71.973 65 62
Dragon, White:
Wyrmling 5.05 4 4
Very Young 8.26 8 7
Young 11.9 11 10
Juvenile 15.174 15 12
Young Adult 21.046 21 18
Adult 25.256 25 22
Mature Adult 32.122 31 28
Old 36.096 36 33
Very Old 41.023 40 37
Ancient 45 45 42
Wyrm 51.729 50 47
Great Wyrm 57.132 55 52
Dragon, Brass:
Wyrmling 6.703 6 5
Very Young 10.116 10 8
Young 14.799 14 12
Juvenile 18.544 18 15
Young Adult 27.046 25 22
Adult 30.251 29 26
Mature Adult 37.025 35 32
Old 41.2 39 36
Very Old 46.099 44 41
Ancient 50.41 48 45
Wyrm 57.608 54 51
Great Wyrm 62.245 58 55
Dragon, Bronze:
Wyrmling 11.463 10 8
Very Young 15.206 14 12
Young 19.399 18 15
Juvenile 25.332 23 20
Young Adult 31.231 29 26
Adult 38.272 34 31
Mature Adult 42.402 39 36
Old 47.334 43 40
Very Old 51.482 48 45
Ancient 58.93 54 51
Wyrm 63.904 58 55
Great Wyrm 68.417 63 60
Dragon, Copper:
Wyrmling 7.79 7 6
Very Young 11.24 11 9
Young 15.96 15 13
Juvenile 19.73 19 16
Young Adult 27.166 26 23
Adult 32.366 31 28
Mature Adult 39.48 36 33
Old 42.804 40 37
Very Old 47.692 45 42
Ancient 51.935 49 46
Wyrm 59.143 55 52
Great Wyrm 63.733 60 57
Dragon, Gold:
Wyrmling 13.31 12 10
Very Young 18.92 17 15
Young 22.77 21 18
Juvenile 28.672 27 24
Young Adult 35.665 32 29
Adult 40.603 37 34
Mature Adult 45.111 42 39
Old 53.517 48 45
Very Old 58.561 53 50
Ancient 64.065 58 55
Wyrm 71.507 64 61
Great Wyrm 77.212 69 66
Dragon, Silver:
Wyrmling 12.065 11 9
Very Young 15.96 15 13
Young 20.005 19 16
Juvenile 26.002 25 22
Young Adult 32.004 30 27
Adult 39.989 35 32
Mature Adult 43.256 40 37
Old 48.324 45 42
Very Old 53.127 49 46
Ancient 60.0675 55 52
Wyrm 66.11 60 57
Great Wyrm 74.234 67 64
poilbrun
Explorer
Thanks guys, basically, it's what I thought... Nothing official.
Thanks for the details too Fieari, I had already looked at UK's numbers (though I only have version 4, where did you get version 5?).
My problem, though, is the same with the WotC system and UK's system. When you look at the ECL of the creatures, they really don't compare to PC's.
Look at the ECL of great wyrms (UK's system): from 52 for White to 66 for Gold. Are you telling me that a great wyrm White is equal to a level 52 character? If, as was planned, I have a group of three level 55 PC plus a great wyrm White, I don't expect the dragon to add anything useful to the party except being an extra target for the enemies.
Using WotC's system, as outlined in Draconomicon, a great wyrm gold would be the equivalent of a character with a level equal to HD (41) + LA (a young already has +6). A white would be HD (36) + LA (juvenile has +5).
There's no way in either system that you could have a dragon in a party with such rules. I'm not even sure that I should use only HD to compare dragons and PC, especially at epic level. A great wyrm gold has 41HD. If you compare it to a level 41 PC, it is a lot worse. It casts as a level 19 sorcerer, which means that its magic will be mostly useless. Its attack bonus is quite good, but it will be hard pressed to go toe-to-toe with a fighter with its AC 42; though it might have better hit points (I'm not too sure how high the CON score of a level 41 fighter would be).
Well, anyway, if someone has a nice system to make it work, I'd be glad if he could share
Thanks for the details too Fieari, I had already looked at UK's numbers (though I only have version 4, where did you get version 5?).
My problem, though, is the same with the WotC system and UK's system. When you look at the ECL of the creatures, they really don't compare to PC's.
Look at the ECL of great wyrms (UK's system): from 52 for White to 66 for Gold. Are you telling me that a great wyrm White is equal to a level 52 character? If, as was planned, I have a group of three level 55 PC plus a great wyrm White, I don't expect the dragon to add anything useful to the party except being an extra target for the enemies.
Using WotC's system, as outlined in Draconomicon, a great wyrm gold would be the equivalent of a character with a level equal to HD (41) + LA (a young already has +6). A white would be HD (36) + LA (juvenile has +5).
There's no way in either system that you could have a dragon in a party with such rules. I'm not even sure that I should use only HD to compare dragons and PC, especially at epic level. A great wyrm gold has 41HD. If you compare it to a level 41 PC, it is a lot worse. It casts as a level 19 sorcerer, which means that its magic will be mostly useless. Its attack bonus is quite good, but it will be hard pressed to go toe-to-toe with a fighter with its AC 42; though it might have better hit points (I'm not too sure how high the CON score of a level 41 fighter would be).
Well, anyway, if someone has a nice system to make it work, I'd be glad if he could share
Fieari
Explorer
You know, if you also used U_K's 4 artifact wealth system, it might actually work out. Use two artifacts for defense, two for offense. At Great Wyrm level, that'd easily more than double your armor class, grant an always active miss chance, maybe have some automatic weapon blocking going on, and then on the offensive side, a boatload of automatic metamagic capacity would make the 19 sorcerer levels actually worth something, and then you've got an artifact left over that you can stack with some nasty melee effects. Maybe something that makes it so you can't miss? Or perhaps doubles your power attack ratio? And that's not even talking about the sheer damage bonuses and effects you can get...
I think it could potentially be worth it.
I think it could potentially be worth it.
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