ECL of Epic Templates

[Crothian]

In the ELH we have two templates, the Paragon and the Pseudonatural.

Now, the Paragon Mindflayer has an Ecl of 26. According to Dragon 293, the mindflayer has an Ecl of 18. Therefore the Paragon template has ecl of +8. THat seems very low, and I'm hoping somehow I'm wrong.

THe Psuedo Natural Troll has an ecl of 24. THe troll has an ecl of 11, leaving the template and ecl of +13. THat seems reasonible.

Thoughts?

 

[las]

It seems right in its own way.

 

[kreynolds]

Now, the Paragon Mindflayer has an Ecl of 26. According to Dragon 293, the mindflayer has an Ecl of 18. Therefore the Paragon template has ecl of +8. THat seems very low, and I'm hoping somehow I'm wrong.

Notice, however, that the CR modifier of the Paragon template drops with higher hit die creatures it applies too. Thus, the higher hit die creature you slap it on, the lower the ECL is going to be. I have a feeling that the ECL modifier of the Paragon template, if slapped onto a human (1 hit die), for example, would be about +20 ECL, give or take 2.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

Notice, however, that the CR modifier of the Paragon template drops with higher hit die creatures it applies too. Thus, the higher hit die creature you slap it on, the lower the ECL is going to be. I have a feeling that the ECL modifier of the Paragon template, if slapped onto a human (1 hit die), for example, would be about +20 ECL, give or take 2.

But ecl doesn't change with level. It's ecl 20 at first level, it's ecl 20 at 50th level.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

But ecl doesn't change with level. It's ecl 20 at first level, it's ecl 20 at 50th level.

I never said it did. The ECL would be a set modifier, but the initial modifier would be determined by the hit die of the creature it applies to.

Take the template and slap it on a human. See what you get? The equivalent of a 20th level character, almost like a fighter, but minus all the feats. However, even considering the lack of a crap load of feats, all the benefits of the template make up for that loss. That's why I figure the ECL modifier is about a 20 if applied to a 1 hit die creature, such as a human, elf, goblin, etc.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

I never said it did. The ECL would be a set modifier, but the initial modifier would be determined by the hit die of the creature it applies to.

Take the template and slap it on a human. See what you get? The equivalent of a 20th level character, almost like a fighter, but minus all the feats. However, even considering the lack of a crap load of feats, all the benefits of the template make up for that loss. That's why I figure the ECL modifier is about a 20 if applied to a 1 hit die creature, such as a human, elf, goblin, etc.

But the ecl of a creature with it would be the ecl of the creature + the elc of the template. Do you think wizards screwed up with the ecl of the creatures with these templates in ELH?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

But the ecl of a creature with it would be the ecl of the creature + the elc of the template.

Exactly, but the CR of this template is dependant upon the CR of the creature it is applied to. Now, I know that CR does not equal ECL, but the point is that a Goblin will have a low ECL because it has a low CR and a Balor will have a high ECL because it has a high CR.

Wait a minute...now that I've looked at it closer...

Do you think wizards screwed up with the ecl of the creatures with these templates in ELH?

Not exactly. I'm thinking they accidentally reversed the CR modifiers of the different sizes of hit die creatures, thus they reversed the ECL of the creature it would apply to as well. Take a look.

Take the hit point increase, for instance. The Paragon template gives you 12 extra hit points per hit die, and what's futher, you get max hit points. Both a Balor and a Goblin have a d8 for hit die, but do they get equal gain? Nope. A Goblin has a Constitution score of 11, which will earn him no extra hit points unless he raises his score from taking class levels. This is one of the reasons it's ECL, and CR, are so low. A Balor, on the other hand, has a Constitution score of 19, which will earn him 4 extra hit points with each class level he takes, or with each hit die he advances.

Furthermore, a Goblin's average hit points is only half of it's max hit points (4 out of 8), whereas a Balor's average hit points is roughly three quarters of it's max hit points (110 out of 156), precisely because it has a much higher Constitution.

Now, if a Balor has an average of 110 hit points, and you slap on the Paragon template, it suddenly gets 312 hit points (156 points higher than it's normal maximum and 202 higher than it's normal average), but then you take into account it's new Constitution score of 34, which will net the Balor 8 extra hit points per hit die from increased Con, which is 104 hit points, bringing our total hit points of a Paragon Balor to 416.

Now, if a Goblin has an average of 4 hit points, and you slap on the Paragon template, it suddenly gets a meager 12 hit points (4 points higher than it's normal maximum and 8 points higher than it's normal average), but then you take into account it's new Constitution score of 26, which will net the Goblin 8 extra hit points from it's increased Con for it's single hit die, bringing our total hit points of a Paragon Goblin to 28. That's one hell of a difference.

According to the template, the CR of a Paragon Goblin would be a whopping 18.25 (compared to it's original CR of .25, 18 points higher), and the CR of a Paragon Balor would only be a 30 (compared to it's original CR of 18, only 12 points higher).

But, obviously, the Paragon Balor is still a hell of a lot nastier than a Paragon Goblin, and we've only touched the iceberg, as this is only hit points so far. We haven't even gone into attack capabilities.

I can only conclude that the CR modifiers are backwards, that they should at the very least read like this: Challenge Rating: Up to 6 HD, as base creature +12; 7 HD to 15 HD, as base creature +15; 16+ HD, as base creature +18.

Wierd.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

I can only conclude that the CR modifiers are backwards, that they should at the very least read like this: Challenge Rating: Up to 6 HD, as base creature +18; 7 HD to 15 HD, as base creature +15; 16+ HD, as base creature +12.

Wierd.

Have you been smoking that Paragon Weed again? That's what they DO say in the book.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic Templates

Have you been smoking that Paragon Weed again? That's what they DO say in the book.

LOL Holy crap! ROTFLMAO Now that's funny! Doh!

EDIT: There. That looks much better.

 

[Orco42]

One of the PC's in my campaign just died. Now he wants to come back as a Paragon Pseudonatural Human Monk.

I just used the CR for the ECL (+18 for paragon, +16 for pseudo). I know for most things this is not correct but a 8 ECL for paragon seemed way to low.