ECL Problems . . . HELP!

Gromm

First Post
Anubis said:

The DMG plainly and clearly states that monsters gain levels at the same rate as humans, and the monster's base levels is its Hit Dice. That means an ogre has a base "Level" of 4. In the DMG, ECL is only used to determine when these monsters should be allowed in the game.

Reread the DMG, ogres are +5 there (been erratted to +8). ECL has nothing to do with hitdice. I wont quote the whole section again here, just read it from beginning to end, and if you have the FRHB then read the section in there. It explains everything even better than the DMG.
Basically you have, in your example, 8 levels of ogre and say one level of fighter you are now a 9th level character. You also have only one class level (Ftr1) and as such get one feat, as a 11th level character (ECL8+Ftr3) you get your second feat, and so on.

If it was hitdice alone I'd gladly make a planetar PC at ECL +12 (or however many hitdicethey have). Hitdice don't take into account abilities of creatures. A troll doesn't have many hitdice considering, but his abilities are insane (regeneration-unkillable PC, insanely high physical stats, nat armor, etc).
ECL takes EVERYTHING into account, and (ideally) has playtesting to back it up.
 

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jollyninja

First Post
a friend of mine and i disagreed about the validity of the dragon magasine's ecl list, so i crunched some numbers using an ogre (one of his major complaints) and the dmg's class at this level charts, and giving the ogre an average roll of 12 like the characters in the dmg. level 8 fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, monk and cleric all could beat the crap out of an ogre in a straight up toe to toe fight most times. bard rogue, sorceror, wizard could not. then i tried making an "average man" averaging out the melee combat capabilities of all 8th level characters, and took on the ogre calculator style, the ogre slaughtered it. then i took out the wizard and sorceror. it was verry close but the ogre won. combine that with the potential for extreme munchkinism and i agree totally with the 8 ecl for the ogre.
 


Anubis

First Post
This ECL problem completely breaks CR!

Here's why:

A Level 2 ogre would by Level ECL 10. Four Level 2 ogres would be party level 10. Ogres are CR 2. A Level 8 ogre would be CR 10.

According to the rules, that Level 8 ogre would be a decent encounter for the four Level 2 ogres. What? DUH! I'm sorry, but a Level 8 ogre would SQUASH a party of Level 2 ogres. Yet that is supposed to be the same level of challenge as a Level 10 HUMAN would be to a party of four Level 10 humans?

I don't think so. Either CR must be used as ECL or vice versa. CR would be great to use as ECL because a single character of the same level as a party of characters is a decent challenge. (i.e. 1 Level 10 character vs. 4 Level 10 characters) Therefore, the ECL of a monster should be the same as CR, because that is when the monster is best matched against a party.

Because an ogre is CR 2 and hence a challenge for a Level 2 party, an ogre should be considered ECL 2.
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Ah, but the NPC ogres have:
* Average stats
* NPC baseline

Both of these give the players a huge advantage. For level 10, IIRC, the baseline is 49,000 gp for PCs and 16,000 gp for NPCs. The difference in stats is significant.

Are they equal in power? I'm sure one side or the other has the advantage, but haven't playtested it myself. Until I do, I won't know.
 


Xarlen

First Post
Ok, let me explain things because people apparently have waay to much stuff confused.

CR Does Not EquL ECL.

If CR=ECL, then a Young Red Dragon could be a 6th level character. Obviously, This Is Not Balanced.

The CR system is a little wacked to begin with. Let's look at a level 8 fighter. He has a CR 8. This means that two level eight fighters wailing on eachother is much more a challange, then the CR system is set up for. No. CR means Challange Rating, as compared to A PARTY. Yes. A PARTY. A CR is how hard something is, compared to 4 PC's. Thus, a Troll, a CR4, is an Average Challange for a 4th level party.

An ECL (Equivilent CHaracter Level) is how you balance a Single Character. How you balance someone to be in a group of equal characters.

Let's look at your standard, assumed party. One fighter, one wizard, one cleric, one rogue. Let's set the party's level at... Six.

Now, you can have all four characters at six level, of assorted race, by the PHB. Watch, as we add ECL's. Let's use the Tieflling, ECL +1

The fighter is level six. However, if he were a Tiefling fighter level six, he would be considered Level Seven. Thus, having a level seven character in with a sixth level group is the same. HOWEVER, the tiefling were 5th level, then he would be considered a Sixth Level Character, to fit into the party.

Werewolves have an ECL of +3. Thus, if one of the characters were a True Lycanthrope (Afflicted don't count, because that's just a disease), a 3rd level character would be considered 6th level, to enter the party, and be considered the same power and equasion with them. Why is it done like this?

Werewolves, for instance, can change shape. They get a +2 str, +4 dex, and extra feats. Not only that, but skill bonuses. THis is figured up into three level equivilents. THey sacrifice three levels, to get the benefits of the class.

Same with tieflings, who get a +2 to str, and a -2 to Cha, but they can cast Darkness, and have energy resistance 5 to fire, and two other things. Not only that, but they are Native Outsiders, thus Hold Person, Charm Person, Dominate Person, etc, do not work on them. This is considered the equivilent of sacrificing a level, to gain these powers.

One more time, I'll give another crack.

CR is based on an equasion of four (The basic party size).

ECL is figured on an equasion of 1, because it is considered a PC. Why? Because some of the powers that a creature can have, may come into play with a PC only once. Spell Like abilities that work once a day, or at will, make little difference in a fight, but when a PC can use them at will, it's a *big* difference.
 

Spatula

Explorer
Anubis said:
This ECL problem completely breaks CR!

*sigh* I wonder if the previous threads are still findable without the board's search function.

CR is not ECL. CR is a rough measure of what level of challenge a creature can offer a balanced party. It assumes the creature is used as listed. A MM ogre has a CR of 2, but it also has base stats that are all 10's and 11's, and the following equipment: greatclub, longspear, hide armor (worth about 40-50 gp total). CR is only used for foes of the PCs.

ECL is a rough measure of how many character levels a monster is worth. It is only used for PCs. A 0-level PC ogre is 8th level, and has the experience points *and equipment* of an 8th level PC. Also, the character's stats are much higher than normal.

So there are 2 different mechanics - one for NPCs and one for PCs. CR does not evaluate how useful a creature's abilities can be over the length of a campaign, only how effective the creature is in combat against a balanced party of 4 PCs. A creature that has at-will spell-like abilities, for example, gets to use those powers maybe 2-3 times in a fight against PCs. A PC with at-will spell-like abilities can use those powers constantly in a variety of different situations.
 

Archer

First Post
The 4 ogre pc's would totally whup the 1 NPC ogre. They would flank for starters, get way more attacks per round (combined) doing more damage etc. etc. You can play it out and the PC's will win 95% of the time. If one PC gets wounded he can bow out and let the other 3 keep fighting. The NPC is stuck. The PC can even drink some healing potions and get back in the action while the NPC would lose his attacks and trigger AoO if he tried to heal himself. 10th level gives the NPC the best chance because he gets 3 attacks per round and he'll still be crushed. At 9th level he'd only get 2 and at 11th level all the PC's would get 2.
 

Gromm

First Post
I'll say it again, because someone has to.

ECL does NOT= CR

A CR 12 dragon will massacre a 12th lvl fighter, or wizard, or whatever. Player classes tend to be the bottom end of their CRs anyway (compare an ogre to a 2nd level anything, the ogres probably got the edge using baseline stats).

Some of the ECLs I will agree seem a bit high, but I personally haven't playtested them, so I can't say. What do you think a player will do with a +10 to Str? Probably make a character with a 28 in Str (more after equipment, etc).
Consider that this Ogre has the equipment of a level 8 PC, without it hes screwed, but with it he'll be doing Massive damage with his magical huge greatsword and giant strength. Add in a level of barbarian for rage and it only gets worse.
Sure his saves suck and he's low on hp, but thats what makes him fair. Otherwise everyone who wanted a fighter type would make monsters.
 

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