Li Shenron
Legend
Crothian said:
Heh, it's not the ECL itself which gives you those opportunities tho...
ECL Races, EVER worth it?
- Thread starter HeapThaumaturgist
- Start date
Heh, it's not the ECL itself which gives you those opportunities tho...
arscott
First Post
ECL != CRHeapThaumaturgist said:
Remember that many abilities can wildly affect the power of a PC but make little difference in the scope of one encounter (or vice versa).
Which is not to say that ECL races are necessarily a good deal, either. In general, they're priced to discourage folks from playing the ECL races for purely mechanical reasons. If you want to play a half-succubus ninja/paladin, you've got to take a slight hit for making the DM's role harder. And I don't disagree with that design aspect.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Well, using the rules in Wulf's expanded Grim Tales CR system, you CAN do character CR so ECL = CR.
Not, as somebody said, that some of the ECL races wouldn't be worth it for RP or character reasons, in the right amounts. This particular campaign features a large resurgance of Drow social domination, with an evil empire (NOT run by the Drow) and a large part of humanity enslaved. Of course the concept for the campaign was the party would be Good freedom-fighters opposing and eventually toppling the empire in an epic and plane-spanning tale ... but when the GM offered up Drow for the obvious "I'm The Only Good Drow" Dribble Do'Udon concepts I decided instead to go total Lawful Evil with enough backstory to account for his joining the human-underground-resistance. It's been a blast, really, but he allowed me to take the "racial levels" method from Wizard's bit on Savage Progressions, so that when we started at 4th level I wasn't playing a 2nd level PC. Honestly, -I- would have never taken the racial levels, but I feel sort of bound to do so, and recently skipped 6th level with everybody else to pay off a racial level. 7th is fast on its heels and I'm trying to decide if it's worth even MORE loss of spellcasting power (wanted to stay traditional, Male Drow Wizard). It's NOT, but sitting in limbo with 5+Level SR certainly isn't worth a level.
By Upper_Krust's system, for a PC, the stat bonuses and ESPECIALLY the Spell Resistance are about worth the +2 LA you get stuck with as Drow. But SR is a sticky thing. It only crops up when you're targeted with magic, and the smart money's on not targeting obvious Drow with magic. AND it's a hot-moment ability that's often likely to be forgotten. Another player went Drow and got nuked by a Fireball and it wasn't until after the game that I thought about it and realized nobody remembered to roll his SR. So, really, since that's the only spell he's been targeted with all campaign, and if its the only spell he's targeted by until that character dies or is retired, he's largely wasted two levels. That just sort of spooked me. If there were a race out there that was +1 LA for purely, say, stat-bonuses, THAT might be worth it because you're not liable to forget you have +4 STR in the middle of a tense combat.
So I got to looking at some of the "big and tough" type monstrous races, and realized that they all had about 2-4 Racial Hit Dice and LAs of +1-+2. Bugbear, for instance, is ECL 4 ... and for that you're really paying for only about +2.3 PC CR. Horribly over-priced.
This has just been of interest to me recently because several GMs have felt a little kitchy and recently opened up the floor to all of the "Playable As PCs" type monstrous races ... and have been dissappointed at the mysterious lack of response from the player base. I went for it for purely role-playing reasons, but to be honest, I had to plot out the price-to-value and make sure Drow was at least somewhat worth the price tag.
--fje
Not, as somebody said, that some of the ECL races wouldn't be worth it for RP or character reasons, in the right amounts. This particular campaign features a large resurgance of Drow social domination, with an evil empire (NOT run by the Drow) and a large part of humanity enslaved. Of course the concept for the campaign was the party would be Good freedom-fighters opposing and eventually toppling the empire in an epic and plane-spanning tale ... but when the GM offered up Drow for the obvious "I'm The Only Good Drow" Dribble Do'Udon concepts I decided instead to go total Lawful Evil with enough backstory to account for his joining the human-underground-resistance. It's been a blast, really, but he allowed me to take the "racial levels" method from Wizard's bit on Savage Progressions, so that when we started at 4th level I wasn't playing a 2nd level PC. Honestly, -I- would have never taken the racial levels, but I feel sort of bound to do so, and recently skipped 6th level with everybody else to pay off a racial level. 7th is fast on its heels and I'm trying to decide if it's worth even MORE loss of spellcasting power (wanted to stay traditional, Male Drow Wizard). It's NOT, but sitting in limbo with 5+Level SR certainly isn't worth a level.
By Upper_Krust's system, for a PC, the stat bonuses and ESPECIALLY the Spell Resistance are about worth the +2 LA you get stuck with as Drow. But SR is a sticky thing. It only crops up when you're targeted with magic, and the smart money's on not targeting obvious Drow with magic. AND it's a hot-moment ability that's often likely to be forgotten. Another player went Drow and got nuked by a Fireball and it wasn't until after the game that I thought about it and realized nobody remembered to roll his SR. So, really, since that's the only spell he's been targeted with all campaign, and if its the only spell he's targeted by until that character dies or is retired, he's largely wasted two levels. That just sort of spooked me. If there were a race out there that was +1 LA for purely, say, stat-bonuses, THAT might be worth it because you're not liable to forget you have +4 STR in the middle of a tense combat.
So I got to looking at some of the "big and tough" type monstrous races, and realized that they all had about 2-4 Racial Hit Dice and LAs of +1-+2. Bugbear, for instance, is ECL 4 ... and for that you're really paying for only about +2.3 PC CR. Horribly over-priced.
This has just been of interest to me recently because several GMs have felt a little kitchy and recently opened up the floor to all of the "Playable As PCs" type monstrous races ... and have been dissappointed at the mysterious lack of response from the player base. I went for it for purely role-playing reasons, but to be honest, I had to plot out the price-to-value and make sure Drow was at least somewhat worth the price tag.
--fje
Li Shenron
Legend
At least HD-based SR is one of the thing that makes more sense to me that it gives a constant LA. More or less the Drow has a roughly 50% chance of avoiding spells at any level.
But it's far more complicated with the other racial benefits... Special abilities can be a total boon at low levels, especially if they are "at will": a fly speed alone is usually worth at least LA +1, but already at mid levels you can get the same from spells and items, not constantly but usually just when you need it. Unless the party is ususually low on spellcasters, special abilities which resembles spells are not so empowering at high levels.
Stat bonuses instead are still useful at every level (they also make less difference at high levels, but not so less IMHO), but they are worth very differently depending which is your character class. I don't think that a race with +4 Str should have the same LA for a wizard or a fighter.
Then of course there are racial HD. These are IMHO not worth the +1 ECL/HD in the majority of cases, it still depends a lot on which class you take.
If the race is of a type with +1BAB/HD then obviously it's probably a good choice for combat-types. But assuming for the moment no extra LA, those racial "levels" should give some benefit for the loss e.g. in fighter feats.
OTOH no racial HD are ever useful to any spellcaster as much as the lost class levels would be.
But it's far more complicated with the other racial benefits... Special abilities can be a total boon at low levels, especially if they are "at will": a fly speed alone is usually worth at least LA +1, but already at mid levels you can get the same from spells and items, not constantly but usually just when you need it. Unless the party is ususually low on spellcasters, special abilities which resembles spells are not so empowering at high levels.
Stat bonuses instead are still useful at every level (they also make less difference at high levels, but not so less IMHO), but they are worth very differently depending which is your character class. I don't think that a race with +4 Str should have the same LA for a wizard or a fighter.
Then of course there are racial HD. These are IMHO not worth the +1 ECL/HD in the majority of cases, it still depends a lot on which class you take.
If the race is of a type with +1BAB/HD then obviously it's probably a good choice for combat-types. But assuming for the moment no extra LA, those racial "levels" should give some benefit for the loss e.g. in fighter feats.
OTOH no racial HD are ever useful to any spellcaster as much as the lost class levels would be.
Enforcer
Explorer
I don't know what this Upper Krust calculation is, but both the Half-Giant (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and the Goliath (Races of Stone) seem worth the +1 Level Adjustment to me. Bonuses to Str and Con on both (better with the Goliath, but the Half-Giant is naturally psionic) and the almighty Powerful Build feature so you can wield a Large-sized weapon and throw your weight around in all those grappling situations. And a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior or Fighter/War Mind with Expansion...hehe...
In my experience the ELC are overprised. They do privide some unique oportunities for rp. But are ussualy too focust in sertain aspect. One of my players wanted to try a moon dog, in the role of front line figter( as presented in drg 313). I run the group trough Caludron series. His dismisal ability was useful I admit, but his attack were verrrrry weak. At 17l, you get BAB 9/4, STR +6, bite at 1d8, four feats. Good croud disperser, or against low will outsiders(which is to say only the low HD ones).
I think one of the things some people forget when choosing to play La+X race is how many feats they are losing. ECL3 looses at 2 feats(1&3), since taking PC classes is like you are multiclasing. Lets take ogre for an example, For ECL8 you get 4HD, +10Str, +4Con, -2dex, -4int, -4char, BAB +3, 2 feats. You are giving(compared to human F8) ~ 7feats (the human will get feat at levels 1,1,1,2,3,4,6,6,8). With greater weapon specilisation, you are dealing only 1point less damage, (+4 vs, +5), have addisional attack, more hp(on avariage) and still 3feats more. From purely mechanical stand point, this does not look like a good bargain for the ogre. (A side note, even with greater reach, poor Dex means Combar Refl, is not too useful.)
I think one of the things some people forget when choosing to play La+X race is how many feats they are losing. ECL3 looses at 2 feats(1&3), since taking PC classes is like you are multiclasing. Lets take ogre for an example, For ECL8 you get 4HD, +10Str, +4Con, -2dex, -4int, -4char, BAB +3, 2 feats. You are giving(compared to human F8) ~ 7feats (the human will get feat at levels 1,1,1,2,3,4,6,6,8). With greater weapon specilisation, you are dealing only 1point less damage, (+4 vs, +5), have addisional attack, more hp(on avariage) and still 3feats more. From purely mechanical stand point, this does not look like a good bargain for the ogre. (A side note, even with greater reach, poor Dex means Combar Refl, is not too useful.)
Psion
Adventurer
Whenever you deviate from the default balance model, the question of worth invariably arises and it becomes much more dependant upon campaign style.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that if you beleive the MT is balanced, high LA races aren't, and vice versa. Almost two different assumptions about balancing criteria at work here.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that if you beleive the MT is balanced, high LA races aren't, and vice versa. Almost two different assumptions about balancing criteria at work here.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
I'm making my first forray into the realm of Level Adjusted Races right now in my Eberron campaign and it is interesting to see what the players have chosen. One guy grabbed the Hobgoblin because he just liked the roleplaying concept. He's made him a Ranger/Fighter and is using a Dire Flail with the Darguun Mauler feat and I suspect he'll be a solid presence on the front line. Another player was going with a Drow Rogue/Fighter who looked pretty fragile with less than 18 HP at 4th level. This player changed at the buzzer and is playing an "off the rack" Bugbear who plans to go Fighter/Rogue.
Despite some of the opinions above, I think that the Bugbear is going to fare well. He dropped both of his starting feats into Improved Natural Armor and with his high Dex (16) and the armor that he's wearing, he's going to be very tough to hit. He's got pretty good HP for his level thanks to his Con and his damage output will be respectable, particularly once he takes a level of Fighter and upgrades to the Greatsword.
Clearly a more Feat focused fighter could be doing as good or better but would not have the combination of high-AC/Stealth that the Bugbear has (they have a natural +4 to Move Silently).
I'll know a lot more after tonight when I really start putting them through the paces in combat. For the record, the balance of the party are an Elf Fighter 4, a Shifter Rogue 1/Soulknife 3 and a Gnome Necromancer 4.
Despite some of the opinions above, I think that the Bugbear is going to fare well. He dropped both of his starting feats into Improved Natural Armor and with his high Dex (16) and the armor that he's wearing, he's going to be very tough to hit. He's got pretty good HP for his level thanks to his Con and his damage output will be respectable, particularly once he takes a level of Fighter and upgrades to the Greatsword.
Clearly a more Feat focused fighter could be doing as good or better but would not have the combination of high-AC/Stealth that the Bugbear has (they have a natural +4 to Move Silently).
I'll know a lot more after tonight when I really start putting them through the paces in combat. For the record, the balance of the party are an Elf Fighter 4, a Shifter Rogue 1/Soulknife 3 and a Gnome Necromancer 4.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Low-LA races CAN be worth it. Sometimes it's a little rough, but one level usually isn't enough to totally hose you (or we'd see a big drop-off in multiclassing).
Any more than that, and it gets shady.
You're right, a monster HD is quite a bit weaker than a class level in most circumstances. And the LA tacked onto the end is kind if adding insult to injury for powerful abilities.
Generally, I allow my PC's to take NPC classes for every point of LA they have, so that these levels aren't just 'empty.' You can get HP, BAB, saves, and spellcasting advancement for them. You just get them for crap.
This is, of course, assuming I'm too busy to re-do the monster from the ground up with PC play in mind. It's one of the things I sincerely hope that 4e (or 3.75) will consider. A monster HD shuold, ideally, be roughly equal to a level in at least an NPC class.
Any more than that, and it gets shady.
You're right, a monster HD is quite a bit weaker than a class level in most circumstances. And the LA tacked onto the end is kind if adding insult to injury for powerful abilities.
Generally, I allow my PC's to take NPC classes for every point of LA they have, so that these levels aren't just 'empty.' You can get HP, BAB, saves, and spellcasting advancement for them. You just get them for crap.
This is, of course, assuming I'm too busy to re-do the monster from the ground up with PC play in mind. It's one of the things I sincerely hope that 4e (or 3.75) will consider. A monster HD shuold, ideally, be roughly equal to a level in at least an NPC class.
Odhanan
Adventurer
If you want to optimize your character, races with LA are generally not worth it.
But there are other reasons to want to build a character using races with LA. One of them would be nifty spell abilities for a non-spellcasting character. Or a specific adjustment that help in the specialization chosen for the character. And of course all sorts of background, role-playing and "Coolness" reasons.
But there are other reasons to want to build a character using races with LA. One of them would be nifty spell abilities for a non-spellcasting character. Or a specific adjustment that help in the specialization chosen for the character. And of course all sorts of background, role-playing and "Coolness" reasons.
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