Ecology of the Dragonborn up

[Leatherhead]

You would

I would too, or at least put them closer to birds than others.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I just wish people would just ADMIT to this instead of saying others have no imagination or that dragonboobs work just fine in science or that others are thinking too hard.

It´s good that you know what other people think. Please tell us freely about it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I just wish people would just ADMIT to this instead of saying others have no imagination or that dragonboobs work just fine in science or that others are thinking too hard.

Can't do. If I admit there is just one flaw in 4E, regardless of size, all h4ters will be over it and use it to prove my game is inferior, I am a bad role-player, I don't know even know what D&D really is about, and we should all go back to our 3E games.
(Which is a kinda off-topic way to summarize what's the big negative of having any kind of "Edition War" - it forces us to polarize, because we can't give up any inch of territory!)



Well, my opinion is that the whole complaining about dragonboobs is ridiculous. The stuff on monotremes was "educating", but ultimately, it's all meaningless.

The real reason why Dragonborn can have Boobs is because that makes it the easiest for everyone to say if the Dragonborn is female or not. If it was me, I hadn't done it. But on the other hand, I probably couldn't have come up with something like 3E or 4E either, so what do I knew, eh?
I can live with the artwork for Dragonborn, and am fine to rationalize it with vague hints to playtypuses and non-reptilian dragons and what-you-have if I never need to. Which I won't have to outside of message boards.

 

[Fenes]

I really don't get the "so we can tell if a dragonborn is female" argument. What do GMs do, present a picture and no description? Or present a detailed description, but neglect to mention the gender even if a dragonborn PC would know the gender?

If I had a lizardfolk player character in one of my campaigns, and they'd met a lizard folk NPC, I'd not play some metagame of "... and the character has a crest of maybe 15 cm, surely not 20, but could be 10, harhar, guess the gender", I'd describe the NPC as "female lizardfolk, above average size, darker skin, etc." to another lizard folk PC. If the PC spots the gender based on some colorisation, some different build, or some scent, I don't really care, I simply assume a male could recognise a female of its own species. (I could imagine that this was not the case, and that would bring some plot-relevant changes, and would not be without potential, but boobs on lizards clearly indicate that the gender is meant to be clear and easily spotted.)

I'd require some knowledge or perception checks for people not familiar with lizardfolk to spot the gender, if it was important - but honestly, in most situations, it wouldn't be important at all, since no one but lizardfolk would even care IMC.

 

[Derren]

The real reason why Dragonborn can have Boobs is because that makes it the easiest for everyone to say if the Dragonborn is female or not.

You don't need boobs for that. Just look at what Sony did with the Iksar in EQ2. Males and females of this lizard species are clearly distinguishable even without boobs.

 

[rounser]

I really don't get the "so we can tell if a dragonborn is female" argument.

I really don't get why we have dragonborn in the PHB at all.

They don't have a proper uncontrived name, they look ugly, they don't have mythological resonance, it's hard to imagine something so monstrous walking down the street outside of the Citystate of the Invincible Overlord without people running and screaming, and we can't even tell what gender they are without weird stuff being involved.

 

[Fenes]

And, to make another point:

How many of you actually describe humans, elfs, halflings etc. without stating the gender?

I don't know anyone who does it like this:
"You see a slim adult human. It has boobs and long hair."

I don't know about all the "lizards need boobs so we can spot the gender" people, but in a pen and paper game, we usually describe them gender first, if applicable - "you see a slim human woman with long hair."

So, I do claim that boobs on lizards are not needed to tell the gender, DM description already takes care of that. Boobs on lizards seems a purely aesthetic decision - namely, to add more female curves to the game's illustrations, or more eye candy for fantasy fans of the male persuasion.

I'd rate boobs on lizards in the same category as chainmail bikinis.

That said, I don't really care about the mammary glands on lizards, the main reason for my dislike of them is that they look ugly, have no tail, and would better serve their purpose (catering to Dragon fans) by using a half-dragon template, or by using real dragons.

For all "exotic reptilian warrior race" themes, we already have lizardfolk, yuan-ti, and draconians.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I really don't get the "so we can tell if a dragonborn is female" argument. What do GMs do, present a picture and no description? Or present a detailed description, but neglect to mention the gender even if a dragonborn PC would know the gender?

People like to look at pictures and interpreting them correctly without having to read a text. Also, people to imagine how characters would look like, and having some clues on how to differentiate an imagined Dragonborn woman and a Dragonborn man in your imagination is also nice.

I really don't get why we have dragonborn in the PHB at all. They don't have a proper name, they look ugly, they don't have mythological resonance, it's hard to imagine something so monstrous walking down the street outside of the Citystate of the Invincible Overlord without people running and screaming, and we can't even tell what gender they are without weird stuff being involved.

In a world where Dragonborn, Orcs, Lizardfolk and spellcasters exist, it is quite possible to imagine people not to run screaming just because they see a Dragonborn. It is not our world.

Maybe that's too cosmopolitan for a fantasy world? Maybe you're right. But then, even Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings are to cosmopolitan already. With Dragonborn (and Tiefling), you can no longer hide this fact.

But it makes sense - the implied setting is not just a fantasy world - it is a world with several large empires in its past, each spanning wide areas of the world and uniting people not only of different color, but also of different species. These empires lead to an "inter-mingling" that is probably unprecedented in our history (at least not in Europe - America might be in fact the first historical example for such a thing).

 

[rounser]

But it makes sense

I disagree. A yuan-ti abomination couldn't walk (slither?) down the street in old FR without havoc ensuing. A lizardman would draw a crowd or maybe fleeing onlookers, and probably the watch. A drow would have to keep a very low profile as well (usually stay hooded). Not even D&D logic is with you on this one.

WOTC can change this, but I think it's silly of them. It's too wahoo for the implied setting of D&D for this to be a core PC race, IMO.

I want my yuan-ti to be weird and scarey, but if dragonborn look far freakier than that, who cares about a little monstrousness? Just because the designers are seemingly jaded about monsters doesn't mean they should bring the NPCs of every D&D world down with them.

Besides, they'd be run out of town for being a fire hazard every time they sneezed, guaranteed, if you want to bring "fantasy logic" into it. Pseudomedieval cities burn so very easily, after all.

It reminds me of the time I wanted to play a goblin PC. The DM allowed it with an evil grin to the other players, and my character rocked up to the party.

"Hey, a goblin! Kill it!"
"No-*THWACK*..ow! Wait-*THWACK*...oW! I-*THWACK*--yargh! Want...*THWACK*..to join you...urrrrgh..."

They made their point. I rolled up a dwarf. The new core PHB misses that point - playing goblins and dragonpeople should be optional, not core to the D&D game. It challenges one of D&D's core assumptions: "Monsters are bad, mmkay?"

Make them routine and everyday and that...well, that sucks.

 

[Derren]

it's hard to imagine something so monstrous walking down the street outside of the Citystate of the Invincible Overlord without people running and screaming

Why? Unless they just appeared recently out of nowhere (FR 4E) most humans know by now that they are civilized and got used to them, as they got used to Halflings and Eladrin.
Especially in the PoL setting Dragonborn are known far and wide because of their history.