D&D 5E Ed Greenwood to write 5E's Forgotten Realms

[delericho]

But, by all means, continue stretching you analogies.

Your analogy, from when you said:

It's like claiming that any RPG set in the latter half of the 20th century makes the PCs "largely irrelevant" because other people have the power to declare nuclear war and render their accomplishments moot.

 

[Argyle King]

Imagine if we get a repeat of Monte, and he quits while in the middle of the project.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Here, a 40 minute rant about what I think of 4E Forgotten Realms.

Anyway, relevant here and in short is I will believe this when I see it. WotC is already back off of promises made about 5E in terms of game mechanics. We will see what the final product looks like in terms of 5E FR and until then I refuse to give a damn.

 

[Alzrius]

My apologies, everyone. I promoted this to a news item and attempted to change the date of the the posts to ensure it would appear near the top of the news (unfortunately it took a few days before anybody pointed the thread out to me!). Unfortunately, I screwed it up and all the posts are now showing in the wrong order.

They should be OK from now on. Sorry about that. Hopefully you can continue the conversation OK.

This pretty well encapsulates how much sense I think the 4E Forgotten Realms makes, and showcases the need to retcon it back to coherency.

 

[Alzrius]

Greenwood having creative control for the 5e Realms has me listening, for the first time in years where FR is concerned. But if they want to get me back after my interest in it cratered after seeing 4e turn it into something barely resembling FR, they'll probably need to let Ed and some others (Boyd? Schend? Either of them too please?) have complete editorial control to redact or reboot in part or in whole.

But this is promising news. We shall see.

This pretty well sums it up for me. While I'm sympathetic to the "why did they destroy something with an established fanbase to try and appeal to the people who already hate it?" line of thought, I wonder if that's asking the wrong question.

While the 4E FR Campaign Guide was written in part by Ed Greenwood and several other big names, I can't help but wonder if there was a pervasive attitude of "it's so hard trying to keep track of this setting" among the 4E FR designers - that blowing up the Realms was their idea to make it easier for themselves, rather than the fans.

If that's the case, I think it summarizes why I dislike their approach. The Realms, like all campaign settings, should be run by people who actually enjoy them, rather than those who find them to be burdensome. Putting guys like Eric L. Boyd and Stephen E. Schend back at the helm would be a huge leap forward for the setting.

 

[Dr. Bull]

Please... Everyone relax. It's a campaign world. Use what you like, disregard the rest...

If you don't like Elminster, don't include him. Personally, I love the maps, the pantheon, and the rich history...

I am grateful for Ed Greenwood's world and I am happy to hear that he will be in charge of it once again!

 

[Otakkun]

I love my old realms. And if they are coming back with 5E, then I'll be back with them as well.

I've always found the rants about old El to be nothing but childish ranting. So yes, he is a powerhouse, mage extraordinary and will probably always be a magintude more powerful than any PC out there.... so what? If your DM uses him as a Deus Ex Machina in his adventures then that's HIS fault, not old El's. Even if he's not there, your DM is going to change it with old Pete is that's what he likes.

Finding El a nuisance because of what he's capable of doing is a null point. So what? You also want all gods wiped out because they are too powerful?

The rants about the more notorious characters on the realms all fall into the same category to me, it's like saying "why work for a living if Bill Gates could give me enough money to live my life twice with just the interest he gets in a month on his bank accounts". So what? He's obviously not going to appear out of nowhere and say "hey dude I'll make your life easier because I can and I don't have anything better to do". He's got his own life to live, just like El has his own tribulations.

Anyway, enough ranting. I'm glad to get Ed back in FR, let's just hope he manages to do some damage control and make the realms interesting again.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Finding El a nuisance because of what he's capable of doing is a null point. So what? You also want all gods wiped out because they are too powerful?

In my experience, folks dislike Elminster not because he's so powerful but because the published material for the Realms really shoves him in everybody's face. He began as a spokesperson for the Realms, but sometime during the 2nd edition era, he became pretty insufferable.

Take a look at any of his novels. Find a female character. Skip ahead 20 pages, and odds are good that said female character is stripped bare and offering herself to Elminster.

Or take a look at modules like the awful Time of Troubles modules, where Elminster basically exists to mock the PCs and force them to follow the plot and where we get treated to passages like this:

If any PCs refuse, Elminster will shrug, say, "Be nothing, then," in tones of cold scorn, and turn them invisible by means of a spell of his own – invisibility that does not wear off for 3-12 days, and cannot be removed by other magic short of a limited wish, except by Elminster himself.

If PCs press Elminster for informal tion [sic] as to what they should do, and why, he will hurry on toward the temple, smiling, and say, "All in good time, all in good time…save the world first; ask questions later!"

If any PC should attack Elminster, or try to sneak away, they will find themselves levitated sixty feet straight up in the air, helpless to move or undo this magic (despite any spells they might try).

Yeah, Elminster can be used well in a game. Yes, he is sometimes written well. But if anybody played the game in the 1990s, they got this stuff shoved down their throat ALL THE TIME. And while you could ignore all the supplements that talked about how funny, powerful, wise, and handsome he was, ignoring Realmslore kinda misses part of the fun about the Realms.

It's not really about Elminster's power - if it was, folks would hate the Simbul even more. It really boils down to some really bad writing that, while it is getting far into the rearview these days, still leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The Chosen were problematic, but that was because they were goads for the DMs to use to punish the party without retribution. However, they were a small part of the setting and 4E didn't really get rid of them or change their purpose. Rather than "fix" what was broken about FR, 4E just broke lots of stuff that was working.

 

[Mark Oliva]

I doubt very much that 5E - with or without Ed Greenwood - will be able to resurrect the magic of the original AD&D 1E grey box. Too much has been mangled too thoroughly to ever make sense of the Realms again, and gee golly whillikers, Ed's getting old and probably pretty tired too.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

No, recapturing the magic is not possible. But it does not have to fail either.

 

[Ihsahn Satyricon]

The Realms rule. Always have, and always will. Ed's magic will make the Realms even better than before.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Too much has been mangled too thoroughly to ever make sense of the Realms again, and gee golly whillikers, Ed's getting old and probably pretty tired too.

You wouldn't know it, for all the Realmslore Ed has been producing lately and the answers he's providing in response to Realmslore queries at Candlekeep.com.

 

[Ihsahn Satyricon]

Hell yeah! Go for it ED full throttle! Make it the best realms ever! I'm liking what I'm hearing with 5th edition so far!

 

[Rocinante]

Don't try to "recapture the magic". Make new magic. 1st Edition AD&D is a quarter century dead. It was good, but quite honestly, it had massive flaws. I'm sure some will disagree, but I personally believe that "late-model" AD&D 2nd Edition was the high watermark of the DnD brand. When the Players Option books were on the market but before the D20 system infested the game. I've said for years that D20 is the Windows of RPG Systems: Ubiquitous, Useless, and Developed in Washington.

High level published NPCs have never been the problem. GMs misusing them is the problem. Yes, the over-use of Elminster and his ilk in modules during the 90's was horrifically grating for us old-timers, but you know what? We survived it. I despise Elminster, so you know what I do? I almost never use him unless my PCs specifically seek him out for some reason. And when they do meet him, he often isn't like he is portrayed in the novels and I've been called out on that on occasion. I've always said that he isn't like he's portrayed in the novels for two reasons: 1) I'm not the author who wrote that portrayal, so I'm naturally going to have trouble portraying him the same way and 2) I look at all novels as fictionalized accounts of events that took place within the realms. Accounts fictionalized by Harpers, so naturally Elminster is going to come off looking better than he really is. If you read those same novels written from a Red Wizard's or Zhentarim's point of view, old El wouldn't come off looking nearly so awesome, I imagine.

Personally, I dislike the Simbul even more than Elminster, as she seems to exist solely to one-up everyone else including Elminster. Oh, and she's grim-dark psycho-edgy too! Sometimes I think Rob Liefailed came up with her.

Oh yes, while I'm certain I'll be alone in this, can we please kill Planescape and bring back Spelljammer?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't try to "recapture the magic". Make new magic. 1st Edition AD&D is a quarter century dead. It was good, but quite honestly, it had massive flaws. I'm sure some will disagree, but I personally believe that "late-model" AD&D 2nd Edition was the high watermark of the DnD brand. When the Players Option books were on the market but before the D20 system infested the game. I've said for years that D20 is the Windows of RPG Systems: Ubiquitous, Useless, and Developed in Washington.

Welcome to EnWorld!

It is good to have you here, but we need to ask you to avoid making deprecating statements against things you don't like. It is the kind of thing that starts 'edition wars' which we frown upon.

Thanks

 

[Rocinante]

I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Aaron L]

For me, when they killed Mystra and destroyed the Weave, one of the VERY few things about the Realms that made it unique from all the other generic fantasy settings out there, and turned the setting into "Forgotten Realms: After The Bomb!" is when I completely lost interest. And the whole bringing in new continents on top of the old ones... well, let's just say that I absolutely despised everything about 4E, and especially 4E Forgotten Realms.

So this news about Ed fills me with hope and excitement.

And for the people complaining about the place of Elminster and the other Chosen: the existence of Superman does not negate the need for Batman. Nor of Robin. Nor Animal Man nor even John Constantine. Superman deals with threats on levels that require his attention. The others deal with threats on their levels. And when PCs attain levels where they rival the Chosen? Well then step right up and take your place beside them! I for one get SICK of games that are constant "save the world" scenarios over and over and over and OVER again. What ever happened to people playing adventurers out for loot? And tackling small problems they run into? Most campaigns should NOT be one long quest from 1st thru 20th level with the goal of saving the world. That gets old real fast.

And for the lamers who keep beating the very, very dead old horse of Elminster being Greenwoods Mary Sue, let me repeat something that has been common knowledge for YEARS amongst those of us who care to listen to what the man has to say, instead of just constantly screeching about how much the Realms sucks. Greenwood created and used Elminster for the exact purpose stated in the Old Grey Box: to be a guide and adviser to the PCs. The power-ups and streams of stories about him were at the directive of TSR and then Wizards, apparently because players demanded it. It was not Ed Greenwood's idea, nor (from what I've read) did he particularly want to do it.

So now we'll be having Ed back in the saddle, without all the people who injected a that unwanted nonsense in the first place. I always imagined Ed's Forgotten Realms to be mainly set in the Dales and Myth Drannor, since the Knights of MD were his players, right? And some travel into Cormyr and over to Waterdeep occasionally.

I am VERY excited to see where this will go!

 

[Walking Dad]

For me, when they killed Mystra and destroyed the Weave, one of the VERY few things about the Realms that made it unique from all the other generic fantasy settings out there, and turned the setting into "Forgotten Realms: After The Bomb!" is when I completely lost interest. And the whole bringing in new continents on top of the old ones... well, let's just say that I absolutely despised everything about 4E, and especially 4E Forgotten Realms.

Your opinion. I like 4e and its de-emphasis on high level NPCs, less save havens and getting away from the weave, that existed either only in the background or was annoying.

So this news about Ed fills me with hope and excitement.

And for the people complaining about the place of Elminster and the other Chosen: the existence of Superman does not negate the need for Batman. Nor of Robin. Nor Animal Man nor even John Constantine. Superman deals with threats on levels that require his attention. The others deal with threats on their levels. And when PCs attain levels where they rival the Chosen? Well then step right up and take your place beside them!

As said previously, there is bad precedence in the old official adventures and the Baldur's Game computer game, which had (of course) an Elminster appearance...
BTW, naturally Superman doesn't negate the need for Batman... Batman is acting more effectively and more globally and Superman teams up with him (and the JLA) to stop the real big threads.
But how often is Superman introduced saving kids from car accidents or stopping fleeing bank-robbers? Perfect jobs for less powerful/established heroes.

I for one get SICK of games that are constant "save the world" scenarios over and over and over and OVER again. What ever happened to people playing adventurers out for loot? And tackling small problems they run into? Most campaigns should NOT be one long quest from 1st thru 20th level with the goal of saving the world. That gets old real fast.

But despite of your opinion, Adventure paths from 1st to at least 14th level are one of the main selling points for Pathfinder, which is quite successful.

...

So now we'll be having Ed back in the saddle, without all the people who injected a that unwanted nonsense in the first place. I always imagined Ed's Forgotten Realms to be mainly set in the Dales and Myth Drannor, since the Knights of MD were his players, right? And some travel into Cormyr and over to Waterdeep occasionally.

I hope not. I really like Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara.

I am VERY excited to see where this will go!

I'm very cautious about where this will go...

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I hope not. I really like Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara.

I like them too, but they can exist independently of Forgotten Realms.

I'm very cautious about where this will go...

I am too old to be optimistic. I am... mostly indifferent.