D&D 4E Edition Experience - Did/Do You Play 4th Edition D&D? How Was/Is it?

[Theo R Cwithin]

I never played 4e (my group went the PF route), but I'd like to give it a spin. One day I'll probably pick up used copies of the core books.
I did get the 4e Gamma World set. Not sure how closely it hews to D&D 4e, and never found anyone interested in trying it out.

 

[teitan]

Sorry, you're claiming 4E had "WoW influence". It's on you to prove it does. I've debunked the main theory people who haven't played much WoW typically use (especially people who know nothing about WoW circa 2005-2007, i.e. when 4E was being designed). It is completely on you to show WoW influence. You are equally claiming you "had ears" on the design process.

If you have any actual examples/evidence of "WoW influence", please present them. Otherwise it's just waffle.



He didn't even work there. How are you not understanding this? He worked at an different company that wasn't even based in the US, and whilst it had US offices, they were thousands of miles from the WotC offices.

That you think he "had influence" and "had ears" on the process is not something that makes any rational sense. He left WotC in 2002, and not even on good terms!

Nowhere did I claim any ears for myself or Dancey, just that Dancey's words had some weight on the industry as whole. By 4e's design it is obvious that MMOs, not necessarily WoW itself, was a consideration in the design process. Nowhere am I claiming that it was wholly important but that it was an influence. Put the axe down.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I forgot the whole GSL debacle for 4e. They bit themselves in the rear-end with the GSL because (I don't recall if it ended up being done in practice) they were demanding that 3PP who were doing 3.x stuff under the OGL needed to stop using the OGL for non-4e products if they wanted to develop 4e products under the GSL. They learned their lesson, obviously, because 5e is under an OGL also.

Oh wow yeah, that's another whole complete mess-up that related to 4E, but wasn't actually anything to do with the rules of the game. It was just a middle-finger to the massive 3PP market that 3E had created, which was frankly bonkers given how popular they were.

Nowhere did I claim any ears for myself or Dancey, just that Dancey's words had some weight on the industry as whole. By 4e's design it is obvious that MMOs, not necessarily WoW itself, was a consideration in the design process. Nowhere am I claiming that it was wholly important but that it was an influence. Put the axe down.

I'm not the one who claimed influence. You are. So that battle-axe is in your hands.

You are still ignoring the fact that Ryan Dancey literally worked for an MMO company when he wrote that stuff. CCP Games. They make EVE Online. Obviously he'd say something like that. HE WORKS FOR THOSE PEOPLE.

 

[humble minion]

Dancey wasn't an insider on 4E dude. I don't know why two people in this thread have thought he was now. He left WotC in 2002. He was working at CCP games (possibly not even in the US?) at the time 4E was made.

Fair enough, I probably knew that at the time but this is all pretty fuzzy in the memory now to be honest!

I happened across this long-lost Enworld post on the wayback machine in my googling on the subject this morning, it certainly made it sound that even if Dancey had left WotC by that time, he still had a pretty good line on what was happening internally at the time.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I happened across this long-lost Enworld post on the wayback machine in my googling on the subject this morning, it certainly made it sound that even if Dancey had left WotC by that time, he still had a pretty good line on what was happening internally at the time.

I can't get that open, sadly.

People definitely thought he did, but it wasn't based in fact, it was based in a sort of weird fixed idea that, because the run-up-to and early days of 3E were basically Ryan Dancey-mania (I still have off-colour memes I used to insult him on the old black ENWorld... not acceptable by modern standards...), then even though he basically got fired from even being a consultant for WotC in 2002 (after stopping being an actual employee in 2000!), and certainly left under a bit of a cloud, and then worked for a rival company, 2600 miles away, he must magically know what was going on.

And he worked for an MMO company, as I've been saying. So it was absolutely in his interests to hype that sort of thing.

And people here definitely believed 4E was "MMO-influenced", in part because of stuff like that, even though it was a totally baseless claim as far as I can tell.

 

[teitan]

Oh wow yeah, that's another whole complete mess-up that related to 4E, but wasn't actually anything to do with the rules of the game. It was just a middle-finger to the massive 3PP market that 3E had created, which was frankly bonkers given how popular they were.



I'm not the one who claimed influence. You are. So that battle-axe is in your hands.

You are still ignoring the fact that Ryan Dancey literally worked for an MMO company when he wrote that stuff. CCP Games. They make EVE Online. Obviously he'd say something like that. HE WORKS FOR THOSE PEOPLE.

I ignored no such thing. You've only accused me of it while I acknowledged he was no longer with the company and was fully aware he was no longer with the company, I remember the day it was announced he was leaving and the announcement of The Book of Erotic Fantasy! So I am 100% aware he was no longer with the company but what you seem to misremember is that the trade magazines at the time, and I was a manager at an FLGS from 2003-2007, was that they often would ask Dancey for comments about the industry and the future of RPGs and tabletop games. He was a powerplayer in the time period and his words, whether he worked for you or not, meant something just like a Todd McFarlane, even though he wasn't at Marvel or DC in the 90s and early Oughts, when he said something people paid attention because he was usually right. You look at your competition and what they are doing. It's like celebrities opining about politics. I have no axe in this battle to grind because I like 4e but I can acknowledge that while MMos weren't a direct influence on the design as in "how does WoW do this and how can we translate that to D20 mechanics" it was certainly a consideration. Have a good day sir. You should probably have an Earl Grey or CHamomile tea before those veins pop.

 

[teitan]

And people here definitely believed 4E was "MMO-influenced", in part because of stuff like that, even though it was a totally baseless claim as far as I can tell.

Exactly, you're spouting your opinion as fact and now acknowledging "as far as you can tell". You also openly expressed your bias against Dancey. SO where does that leave the discussion? tea. Lots of TEA.

 

[Randomthoughts]

I did get the 4e Gamma World set. Not sure how closely it hews to D&D 4e, and never found anyone interested in trying it out.

GW uses a simplified 4e rule set. I would be equivalent to "basic rules" that one would find in a quick start document. My ideal rule set would be something in the middle of 4e (in all of its glory) and GW's 4e rules; I like a bit more crunch.

If you are a fan of old GW though, the use of ever-changing Alpha Mutations and Omega Gear (or whatever they're called) might be a shock. I've played it RAW and the group enjoyed it as a casual beer-and-pretzels game. Since I wanted more of an old school feel, I ran a short campaign where powers were permanent with slight modifications (which were quite easy to do).

EDIT: TBH, 4e GW would be ideal running it now on a VTT.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

GW uses a simplified 4e rule set. I would be equivalent to "basic rules" that one would find in a quick start document. My ideal rule set would be something in the middle of 4e (in all of its glory) and GW's 4e rules; I like a bit more crunch.

If you are a fan of old GW though, the use of ever-changing Alpha Mutations and Omega Gear (or whatever they're called) might be a shock. I've played it RAW and the group enjoyed it as a casual beer-and-pretzels game. Since I wanted more of an old school feel, I ran a short campaign where powers were permanent with slight modifications (which were quite easy to do).

EDIT: TBH, 4e GW would be ideal running it now on a VTT.

Thanks for the run down. Yeah, it definitely seemed to have a strong beer-and-pretzels vibe when I looked it over, hehe

 

[pemerton]

My statement had nothing to do with marketing or publishing strategy. It was about making an enjoyable game. I think the system design didn't work so well for what the applied it to.

On this I basically agree with @Ruin Explorer. Including his comments about urban fantasy, which we explored a little bit via some sessions of 4e Dark Sun.