Edition Fatigue

[Diamond Cross]

Gandalf actually comes from the Poetic Eddas from Norse mythology, the same poems, if they can be called that, that give us thor. He is actually an elf in that work.

 

[S'mon]

I do think WotC is silly not selling an evergreen "Dungeons & Dragons" in a box in toy stores that contains everything you need, with a presentation and complexity similar to the 1983 Mentzer Basic set (but more levels - say 10 levels). Something the public could relate to and which would reliably bring in a continuous stream of new players.

 

[delericho]

The game is a pastiche of Europe and other cultures, Medieval and other times, fantasy, horror, sci-fi myth religions and comics.

Very true. In fact, the primary inspirations were probably not directly historical at all, but rather in the types of stories Gygax and the others liked to read (see: Appendix N). So, Conan, Lankhmar, Dying Earth, Lord of the Rings (a bit), etc.

Of course, to a large extent, some or all of those writings were influenced by European inspirations, probably just because those were the ones most familiar to the respective authors.

In fact, if there's one thing I think D&D has lost over the years, I think it has been in that move from being a glorious mish-mash of influences and styles, and become it's own distinct "D&D fantasy".

In the past, the game could do a kinda-Conan, it could do a kinda-Arthurian myth, it could do a kinda-Dying Earth. Hell, there was even a place for the nonsense of "Alice in Wonderland"! (As Jeff Rients said, in D&D, "You play Conan, I play Gandalf. We team up to fight Dracula.")

And I think that that may well be one of the reasons why D&D was so successful. Like the Roman mythology (and, dare I say it, early Christianity), when it spread into a new area, it didn't declare what it found to be incompatible and move on, it instead absorbed and assimilated it.

But now, D&D doesn't really do that. You can't really run a "Black Company" style game natively in 4e (or in 3e, except at extremely low levels). The tone just doesn't work.

And where's Harry Potter? Yes, you can model Harry himself in D&D, but he'll look just like any other Wizard with a wand. Really, what would probably be more suited is some sort of Academy-Trained Mage class/build, with a relatively fixed set of known spells, albeit with some customisations to reflect different OWLS. (Sort of like a more flexible 3e Warmage, or even better the 2nd Edition speciality priests.)

And, of course, there's more to Harry Potter than just the character himself. There's almost no support in any of the existing settings for "Wizard sports" like Quidditch. Sure, the "Sharn: City of Towers" book has one example of a local race through the skyways, but where's the sporting leagues (just getting back after the Last War)? Where's the "Wizard Olympics"?

Or Pokemon? Sure, we had the joke about the 3.5e Paladin mounts, and there are Summoner classes, but those classes generally summon unnamed and generic creatures. Where's the class that has a handful of named creatures he can summon, each with individual quirks and abilities?

Maybe there's nothing in it. Maybe it's better this way. Or maybe I'm wrong (or just getting old). But maybe D&D would do better to stop taking itself so seriously, adopt more of an attitude that "it's what you make of it", and stop tying every damn thing down into it's own little niches.

 

[Hussar]

Delericho - just on the Harry Potter point - I'm not sure. Considering you generally have between three to five choices every time you gain a new power (either encounter or daily), creating a specialized wizard isn't all that difficult. The basic powers are the at-wills, and Prestidigitation covers 99% of the non-combat stuff like writing quills and the like.

I actually think you could do a Harry Potteresque wizard pretty well just with core 4e.

As far as "Wizard Olympics" and the like, I think that the big issue here isn't one of game design but one of legality. JK Rowlings would crush WOTC if they came within a hundred yards of Quiddich in a product. Back in the early days, when TSR rip... err... borrowed ideas from other people's IP, it was a fairly minor thing. I mean, they outright used Moorcock's IP and what happened? They had to pull it from the rerelease of the Dieties and Demigods. These days, the lawsuits would be much more serious.

The days when RPG's companies could willy nilly lift IP to use are long behind us. Look at the beating FASA took over the use of the various Mech's "borrowed" from Japanese anime.

There's no way WOTC's going to risk that sort of thing. Hasbro would have a litter of kittens if they even suggested it.

 

[delericho]

As far as "Wizard Olympics" and the like, I think that the big issue here isn't one of game design but one of legality. JK Rowlings would crush WOTC if they came within a hundred yards of Quiddich in a product.

That was why I said "Wizard Sports" and "Wizard Olympics", rather than "Quiddich" and "The Triwizard Tournament". Put bluntly, there is nothing original about those concepts, only the specific forms Rowling used - Hogwarts itself is nothing more than a Wizard-analogue to a somewhat old-fashioned UK public/boarding school *, and Quidditch is just an analogue of the rugby played in such schools (and, at the higher level, professionally).

Assuming WotC aren't stupid enough to just copy Quiddich/Triwizard, then Rowling doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

* I didn't attend a boarding school, but my school did have a house system, and did have inter-house sporting and academic competition (though no-one really cared). Sadly, we learn magic, but then my school sucked.

And Eberron was specifically constructed as a setting that might exist if it evolved with the D&D magic system in place. Well, such a setting would include sports, and some of those sports would be specifically suited for magewrights (and wizards, and others). Furthermore, if the Last War is an analogue for our historical First World War, then adding sports adds another area of potential interest - in the UK and elsewhere, many of the various football (soccer) teams were in existence. Of course, any leagues would have been disrupted by the War, but would be about ready to restart. But what happens now that the borders have shifted, and teams that were once in the same nation are now separated? How does the advent of the Warforged affect the makeup of the teams? And, since everyone knows there's another war coming, is there going to be an analogue of the Berlin Olympics?

 

[Hussar]

Oh, fair enough. And I can certainly see the place for magical sports. Might even be fun.

But, if you put in a game where the contestants ride broomsticks and shoot balls through hoops, you're gonna get pummeled. I think my point was, after all the legal wrangling through the 80's and even into the 90's, RPG companies are pretty gunshy about stepping on anyone's toes.

To be fair though, sports haven't exactly been presented in D&D very much ever. I'd even go so far as to say most leisure activities have been given pretty short shrift. And, really, I can see why. Sure, I might like it, but, is there really a big call for Fantasy Football in D&D? How much involvement is the average D&D group going to get out of a Bloodbowl tournament?

 

[delericho]

But, if you put in a game where the contestants ride broomsticks and shoot balls through hoops, you're gonna get pummeled.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

To be fair though, sports haven't exactly been presented in D&D very much ever. I'd even go so far as to say most leisure activities have been given pretty short shrift. And, really, I can see why.

True. My bringing up sport is directly a reaction to its place in Harry Potter - before then, fantasy didn't really have a big place for sport. However, if you're doing a "kinda-Harry Potter", you probably need something like it (and Wizard academies, and school rivalries and friendships, and the awkwardness of teenage dating... ah, then again, let's not bother ). It's not enough to just be able to create a Harry Potter clone in 4e.

 

[Argyle King]

Delericho - just on the Harry Potter point - I'm not sure. Considering you generally have between three to five choices every time you gain a new power (either encounter or daily), creating a specialized wizard isn't all that difficult. The basic powers are the at-wills, and Prestidigitation covers 99% of the non-combat stuff like writing quills and the like.

I actually think you could do a Harry Potteresque wizard pretty well just with core 4e.

As far as "Wizard Olympics" and the like, I think that the big issue here isn't one of game design but one of legality. JK Rowlings would crush WOTC if they came within a hundred yards of Quiddich in a product. Back in the early days, when TSR rip... err... borrowed ideas from other people's IP, it was a fairly minor thing. I mean, they outright used Moorcock's IP and what happened? They had to pull it from the rerelease of the Dieties and Demigods. These days, the lawsuits would be much more serious.

The days when RPG's companies could willy nilly lift IP to use are long behind us. Look at the beating FASA took over the use of the various Mech's "borrowed" from Japanese anime.

There's no way WOTC's going to risk that sort of thing. Hasbro would have a litter of kittens if they even suggested it.

kinda funny isn't it?

...when you consider that Harry Potter was originally a character in the movie Troll.

 

[shadzar]

Scimitars? Brigandine armor? Middle eastern and Asian in origins.

You know there was trading and travel (Christopher Columbus 1492) during the middle ages (5th~15th century), so Europe got things like spices, honey, fireworks, and even scimitars and armor from other areas. So when saying the game was of European origins, it should be thought of as "things you could find in Europe", not "things only made in Europe"

 

[prosfilaes]

kinda funny isn't it?

...when you consider that Harry Potter was originally a character in the movie Troll.

If you check Google Books, he graduated from both Yale and Harvard, was a pyromaniac in New York, was a union man injured in a crash, was a big business man, and a host of other escapades prior to 1980. Harry Potter is not exactly a rare name.