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Edition Fatigue

ggroy

First Post
Edition fatigue...that's what I would call it. Just when I caught up with 4E, essentials came out, and not that it doesn't look like great stuff, and that it would be really fun, my bookshelves are buckling already, my bank account whimpering, and my enthusiasm waning. After I saw the collectible fortune telling cards, whatever they are, could be a hoax or the coolest thing since sliced bread, the concept-the very notion of their existence-sent me into a catatonic slumber of complete apathy for all things 4E and essential related. It had been coming for some time, regardless of what was being released. Like an iv with a slow drip of mind-numbing anesthetic the revisions rolled out and I became more fatigued with each drop. The big drops, the essential line in particularly, had already caused severe paralysis on the purchasing front.

Same here. I jumped off the WotC 4E "treadmill" shortly after 4E Essentials was released. I won't be jumping back on again.

I picked up the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium and Heroes of Fallen Lands books, and stopped there. (I was occasionally DMing this season of 4E Encounters, which was using the 4E Essentials rulebooks).

not because I hate the game, or would never play it again, just ...so...very...tired

I've been feeling the same general "burnout" over 4E. (At this point I really don't care anymore).
 

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Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games


Not precisely, since only the online computer elements of D&D are really being (currently) built that way. The books still present a game that can continue to be played regardless of support from the company. However, by discontinuing support and, by extension, pressuring the bulk of the player network to adopt a newer system, the company creates incentive to adopt while creating a sense of obsolescence for older editions. By tying the game now so closely to computer-tools support with a subscription business model, the company has discovered a way to shorten the cycle of editions (in actuality or in principal) amd thus renew their revenue stream. At least some would say, though not all agree, that the move from 4e in June of 2008 to Essentials in Fall of 2010 represents the shortest such edition cycle on record. I believe it portends even shorter cycles to come. It's further difficult to have any discussion about edition fatigue without examining what constitutes a new edition and what constitutes producing virtually a whole new game (setting aside whether or not merely branding something qualifies something as merely an edition of a continuing game line). Hypothetically, one wonders if as many people would have switched to the new ruleset in June 2008 and, if in then coming out with the "upgrade" last Fall, would those adpoters of the new ruleset being feeling edition fatigue at this time, since it would actually be the first "upgrade" of a new game rather than the umpteenth "upgrade" of a game that first appeared in 1974. Can the feelings of edition fatigue be mitigated by producing multiple brands rather than reinventing a single brand?
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Frankly, I don't care that much how often they change the editions of the game, because I'm going to probably be on about a 20 year edition cycle regardless of what they do.

Right now, my D&D related purchases tend to be from 1e and 3e. Surprise, surprise, those are the two editions I play(ed).

Second edition came out, and I pretty much kept playing 1e. There was enough compatibility that I bought a few 2e products (Complete Book of Thieves, for example), but by and large I ignored the edition. Then 3e brought me back, which, as much as anything, probably explains why 3e seemed to be such a smashing success. It wasn't that people had stopped playing D&D, it's that they'd kept playing it but stopped buying it. Then 3.5 edition came back, which was largely compatible with 3.0 and so I bought a few items, but mostly kept playing 3.0. Now 4e is the hot new thing, and I'm still ignoring it.

Talk to me in eight or ten more years. Maybe I'll be ready for a new edition then.
 

fumetti

First Post
One thing to keep in mind is that the complexity of Settles of Catan is much lower than any edition of Dungeons and Dragons. For example, it does not require a referee in order to play. Nor is the rulebook (for settlers of Catan)on the order of hundreds of pages (as far as I know) whereas all editions of D&D have tended to require a lot of reading and rules mastery.

The girls in my family--even mom--play Settlers. There's no way in the world they would touch DnD.

It is impossible to compare DnD and SoC in any meaningful way because DnD is NOT a "session" type game (except perhaps 4E). It expects a large commitment of time to play it right--a way that includes all role-playing.

And we must face it that most people find role-playing abhorrent.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
It is impossible to compare DnD and SoC in any meaningful way because DnD is NOT a "session" type game (except perhaps 4E). It expects a large commitment of time to play it right--a way that includes all role-playing.
.

If you mean SoC 'session' and 4E 'session' as the same kind of 'session' then 4E is in no way similar to SoC. Any role-playing game played in one 2-3 hour session, with no continuity between sessions would be absolutely boring.

I played in a 4E game where each set of encounters had a different DM and different plot. Most people simply played the numbers, and it was mind-numbingly boring, so much it was not a role-playing game at all. It would be like playing WOW or a computer game and having to do all the math yourself.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I 100% agree that it can be done. But, I'm highly skeptical of it being done AND showing as a true major, lasting name in the market. It is a different point.

Which was kind of my point: making an RPG with a compact ruleset is easy- getting the masses to buy it is the trick.

It's not the density & complexity of the rules, it's the nature of the hobby itself.
 

Warning: Fat, multi-quoted post follows:

My opinion is simply that a new edition over decade or so isn't a bad idea. It's changing the system every edition thats the problem. There really is no need for it. As Chainsaw Mage has said, there is really little real difference between 1st and 2nd edition. 3rd edition was a vast improvement and probably nessecary from WotC's point of view to differentiate between their D&D and TSR's. Was there a need to wipe the slate clean and create yet another rules system for 4th? No.
What the GAME needs and what WotC needs are two distinctly different things which don't always taste great together.

IMO the game does need to change over time. I agree that it does NOT need to be revolutionized and/or reinvented from the ground up in ANY edition. Yet many of the changes that were made for 3E were overdue from 1E, much less 2E. 2E changed bupkus as far as the meat of the rules is really concerned. 3E, however, changed too much and WotC - IMO - took it down a road that it was NOT meant to go down. They are now seeing more and more that making "Rules Mastery" a built-in cornerstone of their vision of the D&D rules has downsides.

One thing to keep in mind is that the complexity of Settles of Catan is much lower than any edition of Dungeons and Dragons. For example, it does not require a referee in order to play. Nor is the rulebook (for settlers of Catan)on the order of hundreds of pages (as far as I know) whereas all editions of D&D have tended to require a lot of reading and rules mastery.
One of the advantages of the older rulesets is that while "rules mastery" was a viable approach to play it was NOT intended to BE the play. Instead of roleplaying with "Rules Mastery" as a fun sideline it was changed to "Rules Mastery" with roleplaying as a fun sideline. That's overstating it, of course, but while it may not be true - it's accurate.

D&D, and RPG's in general, need to figure out how to market themselves to be much, much easier to play so that they CAN break out of their niche market.
The appeal of D&D is still a niche appeal regardless of whether the rules are simple or complex. D&D rules began as very simple rules but IMMEDIATELY were set upon by the people using them and made more complex. Even today ONE FLAVOR of D&D rules is not the flavor that everyone wants. Some want a simple set of rules to play freely by the seat of their imaginative pants; some want the libarary of intricate and infinite possibilities and focus their enjoyment around crunching the numbers as WotC said they should. The spectrum from simple to complex will only become more evenly spread with the population of the player base as time goes on. No one edition will EVER again capture them all.

Yes, early D&D was a lot more simple and was hugely popular. But, it was also the corner on the market. It was THE game and was also very complex in its own right. But, as the market matured more complex games became successful because they offered what old D&D offered and even more.
And yet, insofar as I know, D&D has never, ever been dethroned as the most popular, most played RPG. Other games did offer the same thing that D&D offered - but they were NOT D&D and when it came down to it fewer people wanted to leave D&D to play something else than continued to play D&D while wanting it to be/making it be something more/different than it was.

There are new D&D players born everyday and they want a modern version of the rules, not some old, crappy system that wasn't that great in the first place. D&D has done an excellent job with changing with the times, and it is sad that some people can't see that. My kids will probably look at 4th edition and laugh at how silly it was, just like I laugh every time I pull out an old character sheet and see ThacO written on it that I used in middle school.
The effectiveness and value of the degree of change that D&D has made with the times is endlessly debatable. D&D not great in the first place? Yeah, I'd agree that that's true - maybe even that in many ways it was truly crappy. But OLDER editions continue to draw ever more players over time. Again, no single edition is the be-all/end-all for the entire spectrum of players. Even if you believe that 4E is two steps forward it is also one step back - there are elements/aspects of all older versions of the rules that were foolishly eliminated or altered - again IMO.

Original Dungeons & Dragons, 1974. Arguably, without that small RPG's success, we would not have any of these big 5,000 pages RPGs to play with. And yes, I do think this is a very relevant example, mostly because it is a game that is still incredibly fun to play, extremely light on the page count (requires an understanding of Chainmail, though), with a fantastic potential for emergent complexity and customizability. This, to me, is the winning game design that should be emulated.
Well, I'd say "admired" is a better choice of word than "emulated". Again, not everyone wants the simpler set of rules to play by - or they WOULD be playing by them. It is with 1E and 2E that D&D grew outside of the very exclusive wargamer community to a wider audience. D&D would either not be where it is now, or would not have gotten here as quickly as it did if those simple rules had not actually been expanded upon and complicated as they were.

I can't say why, and won't even try, but the fact of the matter is that a great majority of the population have no interest in sitting around a table playing pretend to be an elf. Yes, obviously they ARE willing to sit at a computer and pretend to be an elf for hours on end. But there are massive differences. Not the least of which is MMOs don't really require even a hint of roleplaying. In my experience the "RP" realms for WOW tend to be less popular, are frequently mocked by players on other realms in the same cliche manner table top gamers are mocked in meat space, and don't tend to resemble D&D anyway. MMOs tend to be more about personal empowerment by avatar/proxy and virtually nothing about being "in character".
In point of fact, calling MMO's "roleplaying" games is very much a misnomer. They simply cannot incorporate roleplaying in the way that D&D actually does because the environment that the character/avatar exists in can ONLY react in pre-programmed ways to the pre-approved and limited possibilities for action perpetrated by the player. Simply being able to talk at other PLAYERS by Skype or by text is the palest shadow of actual roleplaying in a game of D&D where interaction with every aspect of the environment and EVERY pc and npc alike is possible.

As regards Settlers of Catan or any board game there simply is little, if anything for comparison to D&D and other RPG's. That there are some who DO play SOC on a weekly or other regular basis doesn't alter the fact that SOC, being a board game, is intended to be a single, isolated, one-off event that is weeks, or really months apart from the last, always has a definitive start, a similarly definitive end, and above all - a winner. D&D, while it can be played in one-off sessions, is designed and intended to be played regularly, recurrently, with no definitive end and above all - no way to win, only a goal of ongoing enjoyment of play.

Settlers of Catan is NOT D&D, much the same way that Pictionary is NOT Monopoly.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I can't say why, and won't even try, but the fact of the matter is that a great majority of the population have no interest in sitting around a table playing pretend to be an elf. Yes, obviously they ARE willing to sit at a computer and pretend to be an elf for hours on end. But there are massive differences. Not the least of which is MMOs don't really require even a hint of roleplaying. In my experience the "RP" realms for WOW tend to be less popular, are frequently mocked by players on other realms in the same cliche manner table top gamers are mocked in meat space, and don't tend to resemble D&D anyway. MMOs tend to be more about personal empowerment by avatar/proxy and virtually nothing about being "in character".
First off it is possible to play D&D (and any other rpg) with little or no actual roleplaying.
I do think that the problem is not that people are not willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf but very very few people are willing to sit at a table and facilitate their buddies to pretend that they are an elf.
 

Whisper72

Explorer
I think part of the problem is that WotC has a good-sized staff. If they aren't constantly bringing in revenue, they all lose their jobs. That gives them a lot of motivation to do SOMETHING to pull in more money.

I admit I have not read ALL the replies in this thread, but this is essentially the 'problem' Why can Monopoly or Settlers make decent money? There is no continuous cost of development and massive staff. It is designed once, and pretty much all future sales are pure profit (minus production costs etc.).

So, this model could very well work from a Hasbro p.o.v., just treat it like any board game. Kill the WotC staff entire. Have a marketeer/product manager run the show on his/her own. When additional product is needed, source it out on a case-by-case basis. The core game never needs to change.

The main question is, does this model produce more net-revenues than the current model? What is the Return on Net Assets of this model versus the other one? And what is the risk of switching to this other model?

If the RPG base is largely looking for the next 'new shiney', then this model may not work. It all depends upon the ability of the game to go mainstream.

I currently do not believe that DnD in any of its current and past versions has a 'basic' version that is basic enough to reach the amount of people as a Settlers or Monopoly.

So for such a model to work, a 'last' version would need to be created, or at least some 'basic' version, fitting in one box and being a complete game that can be replayed often at relatively low intervals (most mainstream players probably play less then once a month) while still providing a 'new' experience and dynamic each time.

The whole 'leveling' issue is somewhat of a gamebreaker here. The whole way DnD (in all its versions) is set up is to create a long time and 'deep' investment in the development of your character. With board games, this whole aspect is not present or minimal. The whole concept of how the game is played would need to change...

The question then would become, is this game still DnD? Is it still a real RPG? The answer for many people would then probably be: no...
 

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