Educated guess on Multi-Classing

[BASHMAN]

Something I remember them when they announced 4e and in some subsequent blogs, was that multiclassing will be even more streamlined and easier than it is in 3.5. A Fighter10/Wizard 10 will not be as cool as a Fighter 20 or a Wizard 20, but not as limited as a Fighter 10 or Wizard 10 either.

They also said that Tome of Battle: Bo9S would be a place to look for "previews".

This reminded me of the way Bo9S deals with multiclassing and class abilities. Suppose you are a Crusader 10 / Fighter 10. You have the "initiator level" as if you were a Crusader 15. Half your levels from other classes count towards your power base in your given class.

Thus, I think that the Fighter 10/Wizard 10 will be similar in power to a Fighter 15/Wizard 15-- not as much of a sacrifice to multiclass, but not nearly as abusive as it was in AD&D, where it essentially only made you 1 level lower than your single classed comrades. I think that if they do it this way, it will make multiclassing less of a risk/act of self-sabotage.

In 3.x if you make the wrong multiclassing choices, your Level 10 character could have a +0 Will save, whereas any character with a bad will save should have a +3 at level 10. I think that 4e will save people from crippling things like this.

Thoughts?

 

[Gloombunny]

Yeah. They mentioned that there would be 25th-level spells, right? Well, if there are 30 character levels, it would be really weird and nonsensical for them to change spell levels from 9 to 25, but very sensible to make spell level = caster level. And that makes a multiclassing rule along the lines of "1/2 your other levels add to your caster level" work even better.

 

[BASHMAN]

Yeah. They mentioned that there would be 25th-level spells, right? Well, if there are 30 character levels, it would be really weird and nonsensical for them to change spell levels from 9 to 25, but very sensible to make spell level = caster level. And that makes a multiclassing rule along the lines of "1/2 your other levels add to your caster level" work even better.

QFT you could be a Level 20 wizard level 10 fighter and still cast 25th level spells! SWEET! And also use level 20 fighter moves too, I would think...

 

[JRR_Talking]

this does sound like a preety good idea

although will the math get funny....so Fighter4/Wizard4 c.f to a Fighter7/Wizard1?

 

[Gloombunny]

although will the math get funny....so Fighter4/Wizard4 c.f to a Fighter7/Wizard1?

Level-dipping is a bit of a problem with Bo9S too... perhaps they'll put in something to fix that. Maybe you can't have more than half your caster level coming from other classes, or something.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Which would make so no sense, to add half your fighter levels to the magic prowess of a wizard. Implying that every class takes cross-training courses with other classes just so that you can add half its level to that of any other class in a multiclass option sounds really far off to me, and not because I'm a "grognard" who prefers his racial level/multiclassing limits. I can see the argument that, since somebody multiclasses, he splits training time between his chosen classes, so he can integrate e.g. magic training into his combat training time...but I'd not be happy with them adding a flat 50% of the first class to the second. Imagine a fighter 8/wizard 2 who'd cast spells as a wizard 6 because he can add 4 fighter levels to his casting power.

If they go that way, I hope they'll include a limit, so that you can increase the second class only by a percentage of its level, and add a maximum of 50% of the first class. Like that, a fighter 8/wizard 2 would cast as a wizard 4 (if you are allowed to raise the second class by 100%), or fight as a fighter 9.

And no, I don't know what to do about fractional levels right now. Round them up or down...I guess that depends on how player-friendly you want to be.

Edit: I see Gloombunny already mentioned something similar, so I really hope that kind of limitation has occured to the designers, too.

 

[Henry]

Which would make so no sense, to add half your fighter levels to the magic prowess of a wizard. Implying that every class takes cross-training courses with other classes just so that you can add half its level to that of any other class in a multiclass option sounds really far off to me, and not because I'm a "grognard" who prefers his racial level/multiclassing limits.

I think it could be justified story-wise - the Fighter 4 / Wiz 4 is essentially both a Ftr 6 and a Wiz 6, because they have the kind of breadth of experience that an 8th level character would receive.

I have no idea how it really works, but think of it as "depth" of training, rather than "breadth." Imagine if (like star wars) the Ftr 4 could pick up only two martial "powers", and only two arcane "powers." They haven't mastered both breadth and depth like a Ftr 8 or a Wiz 8, so they plumb the limited mysteries they are exposed to as hard as they can, which grants them a little more insight than what someone who had only been in the business for four character levels could. That F8/W8 has been to the Temple of Whozis and seen its writings, or has been bathed in the energies of a Chaos Beast's evil spells, and has watched the wizard dispel dozens of enemy wizards' spells. For any or all together of those reasons, he can pick up a little bit more than that 4 levels of training would have allowed a single-classed bu lower-level adventurer.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The problem with the flat 50% rate is that it works okay for a multiclass character who keeps both class levels close to each other, but looks very wonky on somebody who has greatly different class levels in his classes. A fighter 8/wizard 8 who fights respectively casts as a 12th level character can be explained story-wise...but a fighter 8 who picks up his first wizard level and suddenly casts like a 5th level wizard? Not really. That's why I'm hoping for some kind of limitation.

On the other hand, maybe that's one of the topics where we'll have some of the more complex case-by-case rules. Multiclassing traditionally was one of the more complex rules in every edition, even in 3E where we got XP penalty rules, favored classes, etc.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

I'm going to guess that they aren't going to do anything that involves fractional level adjustments...trying to make the game simpler and all.
Rather they'll give options of special powers/feats that only certain high level PC's can take, or middle level multi-class PC's can take. Kind of like how prestige classes work.

Power X
Requires +5 BAB, level 3(well 5) arcane spell access.
Benefit: a melee attack that does 10th level damage once per combat.

A wizard could take it at level 10, but would give nothing special to him.
A 5/5 fighter/wizard would have receive a decent ability that a level 10 PC should have.

 

[Henry]

A fighter 8/wizard 8 who fights respectively casts as a 12th level character can be explained story-wise...but a fighter 8 who picks up his first wizard level and suddenly casts like a 5th level wizard? Not really. That's why I'm hoping for some kind of limitation.

I can even see that, too -- the whole "been to the Temple of Whozis and seen its writings, or has been bathed in the energies of a Chaos Beast's evil spells, and has watched the wizard dispel dozens of enemy wizards' spells" thing. I can rationalize it the same way someone who's been around cars his whole life, watching others put them together and fix them, and then they take their ASE certifications the first time -- they have a stronger leg up than a rank novice would.

If you start looking for an explanation too hard, though, you'll find the same explanation that's given for why someone in a 5' x 5' room with an exploding grenade still gets a saving throw.