Educated guess on Multi-Classing

[Geron Raveneye]

I guess everybody has a different line where his suspension of disbelief stops, Henry. Depending on the setup, I can take somebody pick up first level in a class that was supposed to be years of training, apprenticeship and study, and do so on the fly. But accepting that, because he's spent the last 8 levels training his fighting prowess by combating monsters and villains, and incidentally being exposed to magical stuff around him, he's suddenly an expert caster just because he picked up "Magic for Dummies"...that's where it stops for me. Personally, I've always been a fan of dedicated classes for mixed competences...probably because I started with Basic D&D, where you simply played an elf if you wanted a fighter who can cast spells as well.

Oh, and by the way...that saving throw is still believable. Trying to roll up so you only suffer half damage from the blast works okay for me. What goes into the realm of the supernatural is the whole Evasion deal about not suffering ANY damage on a successful roll. But that's another can of worms.

 

[Odysseus]

My guess is there won't be any fractions of levels, or than previous classes will matter.

I think think if a 4th level fighter, takes a level in wizard. He'll gain a 3rd level spell, at caster level 5, but none of the 1st and 2nd level spells. So he'll gain a 5d6 fireball , but thats all.

 

[erf_beto]

The problem with the flat 50% rate is that it works okay for a multiclass character who keeps both class levels close to each other, but looks very wonky on somebody who has greatly different class levels in his classes. A fighter 8/wizard 8 who fights respectively casts as a 12th level character can be explained story-wise...but a fighter 8 who picks up his first wizard level and suddenly casts like a 5th level wizard? Not really. That's why I'm hoping for some kind of limitation.

I'm surprised no one mentioned Power Sources as of yet. My guess is that's where the limitation is: if a fighter 10 multiclass into rogue, he will get half fighter levels to stack with his rogue powers, because both classes belong to the Martial Power Source - he'll only have access to 1st level rogue powers, but they'll be at 6th level. If he goes into wizard instead, he'll get a smaller bonus in arcane caster level (maybe a quarter fighter levels) - only 1st level spells, at 3rd caster level. Something like that...

Of course, I agree with BlueBlackRed: there probably will be powers with pre-requisites like BAB and/or caster level that only wizard/fighters will have access (or will access earlier than the wizard or fighter only). That will make multiclassing fun, I think.

Another way to work this is through the "practiced spellcaster" feats: your caster level increases, but limited by your character level. Maybe that will be somehow 'built in' the multiclassing system...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I guess everybody has a different line where his suspension of disbelief stops, Henry. Depending on the setup, I can take somebody pick up first level in a class that was supposed to be years of training, apprenticeship and study, and do so on the fly. But accepting that, because he's spent the last 8 levels training his fighting prowess by combating monsters and villains, and incidentally being exposed to magical stuff around him, he's suddenly an expert caster just because he picked up "Magic for Dummies"...that's where it stops for me. Personally, I've always been a fan of dedicated classes for mixed competences...probably because I started with Basic D&D, where you simply played an elf if you wanted a fighter who can cast spells as well.

A question might be: How often does this really happen? I mean, sure, you could play a Fighter to 10th level and suddenly and out of the blue decide to multiclass to wizard? From my view, the following two things are the most likely scenarios for a FIghter/Wizard multiclass
Story Reason: An important event fundametally changed the character. Maybe he was visited by the Goddess of Magic in his dream, he got cursed by an evil Spellcaster or whatever else you had. The original character was probably not in any way "wizardry", but this change prompts him to take up on wizarding. Due to the fundamental nature of the change, he might get a small "head start".

Build Reason: The character was always created with a Fighter/Wizard in mind. I think it's most likely under these circumstances, that the character was multiclassed early on, so circumventing the logic gap inherent to a sudden switch and boost.

There are obvious some issues that can destroy this idea, like a player not at all concerned about the role-playing aspects in the first situation, or the rules making a character that multiclasses late more viable than a character that multiclassed from the beginning.

There is a further thing to limit the abuse that might be built into such a system:
You eventually get a 1/2 level bonus to your caster level, but the maximum bonus you get from your other classes is limited by your real caster class. I think this would probably turn out pretty fair - if you only took two levels of Wizard in addition to your level of Fighter, you didn't lose out that much "fightery" things to need that much wizardry to compensate. But if you multi class evenly, you certainly need a bit more from both classes to be effective.

Oh, and by the way...that saving throw is still believable. Trying to roll up so you only suffer half damage from the blast works okay for me. What goes into the realm of the supernatural is the whole Evasion deal about not suffering ANY damage on a successful roll. But that's another can of worms.

Tempted to come up with some explanation or reasoning, I agree it's another can of worm and decided to not open it.

 

[FireLance]

One way that could work around the problem of the 8th level fighter taking a level in wizard and casting like a 5th level wizard is prerequisites for spells, similar to the prerequisites for maneuvers in Bo9S. For example, before you can learn spells of level X, you may need to know at least X/2 spells first. If you then cut down significantly on the number of spells you can learn when you gain a level (say, one spell per level), then a Ftr 8/Wiz 1 will only be able to learn a single 1st-level spell, even though he can cast it as a 5th-level spellcaster. Of course, I also hope that something like the psionic power scaling system will be introduced so that the single spell he knows will still be somewhat useful at high levels.

In addition, since it seems likely that all classes will have at will, per encounter and per day resources, another way to deal with the multiclassing problem is to have the number of "slots" available to hold powers depend mostly on character level, while class level or caster level determines the number, type and level of powers that you have access to. So, if an 9th-level character has 4 per encounter slots and 2 per day slots, an 9th level fighter might be able to fill these with martial powers up to 9th level , a Ftr 5/Wiz 4 might be able to fill these with martial powers up to 5th level and arcane spells up to 4th level, and a Ftr 8/Wiz 1 might be able to fill these with martial powers up to 8th level and only 1st level arcane spells.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Power Sources as of yet. My guess is that's where the limitation is: if a fighter 10 multiclass into rogue, he will get half fighter levels to stack with his rogue powers, because both classes belong to the Martial Power Source - he'll only have access to 1st level rogue powers, but they'll be at 6th level. If he goes into wizard instead, he'll get a smaller bonus in arcane caster level (maybe a quarter fighter levels) - only 1st level spells, at 3rd caster level. Something like that...

Of course, I agree with BlueBlackRed: there probably will be powers with pre-requisites like BAB and/or caster level that only wizard/fighters will have access (or will access earlier than the wizard or fighter only). That will make multiclassing fun, I think.

Another way to work this is through the "practiced spellcaster" feats: your caster level increases, but limited by your character level. Maybe that will be somehow 'built in' the multiclassing system...

Good call..combining class levels by power source is an interesting method for multiclassing. Sounds like a workable idea.

 

[Anthtriel]

Caster Level is a stupid system, and will probably (and hopefully) go the way of the dodo.

The removal of Vancian casting will strongely affect Multiclass balance. Up till 4E, a single spell of a decent level was a good deal more powerful than anything a fighter could do in a single round, thus the two abilities were only at odds with each other when one was clearly superior to the other. Sure, in 3E a Fighter 19/Wizard 1 will only ever cast a utility spell, as all damage spells would be inferior to a normal attack, but in 2E, a Fighter/Wizard could whack enemies with his sword most of the day, and bring out the spells when they were needed.

This will change in 4E, with stronger emphasis on at will or per encounter abilities. The Wizard's at will damage spell will directly compete with the fighter's ranged attack, so to make sure that a Fighter 19/Wizard 1 is not just a gimped Fighter 19, there must be situations (and not too rare situations, given that both rely on different tools) in which the magic attack is more useful than the fighter attack.
Therefore, I strongly believe that caster level will get scrapped, and all powers will scale directly with character level. The difference between a Fighter 19/Wizard 1 and a Wizard 20 will probably not so much be the pure effectiveness in spells (though it will still be there, due to attributes and feats, if nothing else), but variety.

Try this: If you give a Level 20 Fighter a 1D6 Eldritch Blast, you could as well have given him nothing at all. Give him a 5D6 Blast, and he will still pretty much never use it. Even if you give him a 9D6 Blast, without Blast Shapes, Essences and equipment, that Fighter would most of the time still be better off wacking enemies with his magic sword. Decrease his fighting potency a bit, maybe decrease the Blast by 1d6, and you end up with a character that is pretty in line with a straight Level 20 Fighter, sacrificing a bit of sheer power (maybe -2 to attacks, and one feat less), for the variety of being able to blast physical immune enemies. And you need to decrease the power of that character even less once you factor in that the 4E Fighter/Wizard will need a staff, orb or wand to cast at full potential, so he has even less incentive to actually cast.
The basic assumption of 3E multiclassing was terribly wrong, and needs to be completely abolished. You don't need to "stop the abuse" of multiclass casters, you need to make them a valid option to begin with. I remember all the hate the Mystic Theurge got, until people realized that a Mystic Theurge is more under- than overpowered, especially in the beginning and the end of his career, when he cannot take Mystic Theurge levels.

The one problem I can see are buffs. A Fighter 19/Cleric 1 shouldn't be able to buff himself and then outfight the Level 20 Fighter. But I assume they will take care of that.

 

[smathis]

I think that 4ed will follow SWSE for multiclassing. I think that Power Sources will be equivalent to SWSE Force Points, although different classes will be able to spend/regain them differently.

So a character will get X + 1/2 character level in Power Points each level (with previous levels' points being lost) and then the character will be able to spend those points like Hero Points or to power some abilities (like Spells or Talents).

Some abilities will be no-cost but will only be able to be used once per encounter or day. There will probably be a feat or talent (like in SWSE) that allows a character to use a Talent more than once per day or encounter.

I think this is where they're going with 4e. Based on the example of play with the dragon where the Cleric hits an area effect healing ability after rolling a 20 (and considering that the Jedi in SWSE has a few abilities that charge up like this), I think we can expect characters to follow this model.

 

[Anthtriel]

Which would make so no sense, to add half your fighter levels to the magic prowess of a wizard. Implying that every class takes cross-training courses with other classes just so that you can add half its level to that of any other class in a multiclass option sounds really far off to me, and not because I'm a "grognard" who prefers his racial level/multiclassing limits. I can see the argument that, since somebody multiclasses, he splits training time between his chosen classes, so he can integrate e.g. magic training into his combat training time...but I'd not be happy with them adding a flat 50% of the first class to the second. Imagine a fighter 8/wizard 2 who'd cast spells as a wizard 6 because he can add 4 fighter levels to his casting power.

Oh, but you forget that it is a game and not a simulation. Making some character builds significantly worse than others (and yes, a Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10 by 3E rules make you effectively a pack mule, because you are way too weak to even take on threats below your level), goes a long way to ensure that players are actively powergaming, and build their characters based on what works, not on what kind of character concept they have.

If at all possible, a player should never be punished to play the kind of character he wants to play. That's sometimes difficult (try balancing a character with a level of every class), but always a noble goal.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Oh, but you forget that it is a game and not a simulation. Making some character builds significantly worse than others (and yes, a Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10 by 3E rules make you effectively a pack mule, because you are way too weak to even take on threats below your level), goes a long way to ensure that players are actively powergaming, and build their characters based on what works, not on what kind of character concept they have.

If at all possible, a player should never be punished to play the kind of character he wants to play. That's sometimes difficult (try balancing a character with a level of every class), but always a noble goal.

There's a wide spectrum between "hardcore simulation", where you make a character train for weeks and months, then have them roll a check to see if they succeed or fail in their training, and deduct a heap of GP from their bag of gold on top of it, and something approaching a videogame, where levels pop up over your head in golden numbers when you reach them, and where you can mix and match without any big problems. I don't mind ease of play and character fulfillment...same way, I don't mind a bit of realism where a class is more than just a bundle of points and abilities to be chosen at a whim. That's why I said, the line for suspense of disbelief is different for everybody playing the game.