D&D 5E Eldritch Blast and Repelling Blast - One time or Each Hit?

[Salthorae]

Yeah, we got ambushed from range often in our Dragon Heist game!

 

[5ekyu]

So, okay, you are characterising the cases to support your argument and everyone does that. I think saying that a case is more specific ("specifics where it would not work") entails that initiative orders that would work out are more common than those that would not work out.

My experience from play is at odds with that claim and I think it is easy to see why. For the claim to be true the warlock goes before the ally AND the ally goes before the foe. Label them 0 (warlock), 1 (ally), and 2 (foe). Treat initiative as modular.

012
120
201

There are three cases fitting the claim.

021
210
102

There are three cases contradicting the claim: neither order is more specific.

Once the other requirements are layered on, cases where the cantrip remains problematic (after the change) are many times more specific than cases where it does not. And that chimes with what I found in play at the table over a great many encounters. Perhaps reducing to 10' allows the tactic to still be used in the narrow case you describe: for me, an ability that very rarely causes a problem is non-egregious compared with one that very often causes a problem.

Except of course that thexwsrlock can ready to shoot when the striker moves to 10' rangen of the tanker, so that that shot always goes on thst strikers turn as a ready action just when they need it.

Like somebody ssid, these things might show some lack of experience by some.

But since noth are going off on the strike's turn, the init order doesnt seem all that critical.

 

[5ekyu]

Nope, this was multiclassed to sorcerer and using distant spell.

And, whist Eldritch Spear is one invocation, Repelling Blast and Agonising Blast are also required to make it work.



I don't think I've ever had an encounter in "wide country". Most encounters take place in gloomy dungeons where most characters can see around 60 feet.

I've always felt that Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear where things that sounded good but where of no practical use.

Mine are often outside, but rarely in a desert, so usually somebody has ducked into tree cover.

 

[delph]

Spellsniper ignore 3/4 cover

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think I've ever had an encounter in "wide country". Most encounters take place in gloomy dungeons where most characters can see around 60 feet.

All depends on the campaign. For example, much of my current campaign is "overland"...so large open plains and the like are common battlegrounds. Whereas in my last campaign, yeah it was all dungeonscape.

 

[delph]

All depends on the campaign. For example, much of my current campaign is "overland"...so large open plains and the like are common battlegrounds. Whereas in my last campaign, yeah it was all dungeonscape.

Yes, last one was Tomb of Anihilation - no use for this "combo", Now we are in Waterdeep, and had some work on roofs and streets. Cast repeling blast to someone on roof 3 streets far away, will be nasty surprise

 

[clearstream]

Except of course that thexwsrlock can ready to shoot when the striker moves to 10' rangen of the tanker, so that that shot always goes on thst strikers turn as a ready action just when they need it.

Like somebody ssid, these things might show some lack of experience by some.

But since noth are going off on the strike's turn, the init order doesnt seem all that critical.

Sure, one could ready the spell, set the trigger to the ally's free action ("blast"), hold concentration and cast with your reaction. That didn't happen much for us as the warlock was typically holding greater invisibility or some other advantageous buff or debuff, and (now that I think of it) also wanted to have the reaction available for other purposes.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Shouldn't there be a saving throw involved? Or a strecngth check at least, or a dex check to catch the fall? What if there is a fixed wall behind the pushed opponent? Would he not take additional damage? I know these topics came along with thunderwave or what it is called and such, but is the to hit roll of the eldritch blast enough? Imagine if you got three blasts them, then it is almost a sure bet to hit at least once, that is a real killer then.
What I try to express is: it is not a 9nth level spell causing this and there is asumingly no save on the targeted party, no matter if it is a hill giant, titan or whatever, it is sent flying by a cantrip?

If you use the shove action (PHB p195) in place of an attack, the targets does one contested skill test each push. A fighter can push 5 times in one round to push an enemy off a cliff.

Eldritch blast has to roll to hit contested by AC (to include shield spell and defensive abilities like Defensive Duelist) for one check to see it they are hit and the ability takes effect.

As a rule, Proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics is more rare than a dissent AC because everyone has to be prepared in some way to take an attack but skills can be limited to about 4/18 and many players will look for something more flavorful. A Rogue scout might have four but could easily take, stealth, slight of hand, perception, and investigation in order to scout for traps and be a dirty thief. So as a dex based class that could be good at Acrobatics tests, they have a +5 to a random 1-20 roll do defend against a fighter who if they built with this in mind likely could have athletics for up to +11 for the same test. There is also a number of ways to get advantage on athletics tests and most of the rogue abilities like Evasion and uncanny dodge will not help the rogue vs a contested skill test. The same rogue with +5 from dex adds that to a stead AC17 and could also have static defensive bonuses like +1 -3 armor, a shield (buckler) +1-3, the Defensive Duelist for a reaction of +2-6 to AC and these are all pretty common. They could have an AC15 - AC27 with a reaction to raise it to AC33... depending on their investment on defense.

My point is every enemy is different but almost every player character and NPC has some level of defense making AC stronger against these types of attacks. So before I would consider nerfing Repelling blast which while it is a cantrip, is also a core part of the warlock class design, I would consider am I going to nerf fighters or barbarians trying to knock enemies off cliffs who have to do it in melee but have a greater chance of success? I would also consider @Paul Farquhar's two points. 1. "Creative use of the terrain is part of the game." and 2. "Moral: don't stand near the edges of cliffs". The implication of nerfing an ability clearly designed for this style of play and utility knowing that a player invested two core features of their class (Eldritch blast warlock spell and Eldritch invocation to add this feature) be cause of an off chance they use it strategically in a rare situation where it would actually work, gives me pause. In fact, I have played his warlock and it never game up in the campaign.. not once. Because we never fought in elevated terrain. Usually in caves, buildings, and level ground. So I would be more inclined as GM to put NPC minions on the edge of cliffs just to encourage this style of play. To get warlocks, fighter, and barbarians throwing enemies off cliffs by any means at there disposal. I would also through in a few casters with feather fall, teleport spells, fly, and polymorph.... because not everyone thrown off a cliff is going to die. These feels like an opportunity for me to expand my skill set as a GM use skills that I might not normally use in NPCs. It might be interesting to have a cliff battle with aarakocra, Protector Aasimar, Winged Tiefling Variant, or one of the 4 sorcerer subclasses that gain flight as an innate agility (AberrantMind, DivineSoul, DraconicBloodline, and StormSorcery).

I feel like saying, "this hurts my game" is often a restriction we put on our selves that can be fixed with "unless I....!!" which results in more fun and me binging a better GM that responds to players instead of surprising them from doing what they want.

 

[coolAlias]

If you use the shove action (PHB p195) in place of an attack, the targets does one contested skill test each push. A fighter can push 5 times in one round to push an enemy off a cliff.

I think the biggest issue is that while a fighter can push up to 5 times with no resources, their shoves are not also inflicting damage at the same time, and they have to be in melee range, and the target has to be no more than one size larger, and they have to use their movement if they want to shove more than 5' distance.

That's a lot of extra conditions.

Also, as others have pointed out, usually an attack rider allows a saving throw to avoid it, even though there was already an attack roll made to inflict damage.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on repelling blast as I haven't seen it in play yet (no warlock lovers in my crowd, I guess), but even without specific scenarios I can see that some might be inclined to take it down a notch simply to bring it more in line with other cantrips and abilities.

Nothing wrong with that, even if you or I or anyone else happens to disagree.

 

[5ekyu]

Sure, one could ready the spell, set the trigger to the ally's free action ("blast"), hold concentration and cast with your reaction. That didn't happen much for us as the warlock was typically holding greater invisibility or some other advantageous buff or debuff, and (now that I think of it) also wanted to have the reaction available for other purposes.

So, all this change would fo thrn is chsnge up dome of the other tactics to keep it doing what is doing now.

Hey, if fhars good enough for your table to call it a "fix" then all I can say again is that thats fine and dandy and I am glad you found a house tule that "fixes" your table's issues with the warlock class.

Now as long as nobody figures out all the other ways st tier-3 etc somebody can just skip over that screen line, y'all should I hope be great.