Eldritch Knight core class - help me build

[Grimstaff]

I can't say I agree with the charisma-based spell-casting. The archetype of the Eldritch Knight is definitely wizard-based, with all the versatility that entails. Try looking at your Eldritch Knight core class from the standpoint of where the character would be at 10th level built in the RAW:

RAW version: Evok5/Fighter1/EldKngt4; BAB +7; Fort+7 Ref+2 Will+5; Spells 5/5/4/4/3; Feats 9(Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, +4 General, +2 Fighter, +1 Metamagic).

Core Version: EldKngt10; BAB +10; Fort+7 Ref+3 Will+3; Spells 3/3/3/3/0 (Known 6/4/4/4/2); Feats 7 (3 Bonus +4 General).

The RAW version has way more spells, with the versatility of an Int-based arcane spell user, and gets 2 more feats overall, a higher Will save, and only suffers +3 BAB in exchange.

Lets look at 20th lvl:

RAW: Evok9/FIghter1/EldKngt10; BAB +15; Fort+12 Ref+6 Will+9; Spells 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3; Feats 12

Core Version: EldKngt20; BAB +20; Fort+12 Ref+6 Will+6; Spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/4 (Known 6/5/5/5/5/5/4); Feats 12

At top level, the core version finally catches up on feats, has a BAB only +5 higher, and still suffers greatly on spells per day. Note that the BAB gap can be further closed by sacrificing 9th level spells: Evok6/Fighter4/EldKngt10 gives you a +17 BAB, 2 more feats (including weapon specialization) and still offers many more spells than the Core class.

Try a Core Class set up with the Cleric BAB progression, 2 good saves (Fort and Will), Bonus Feats at 1,5,9(weapon specialization),13,and 17, and staggered spell level access (2nd at 4th, 3rd at 7th, 4th at 10th, 5th at 12th, 6th at 15th, 7th at 18th, 8th at 20th) and you should get a pretty close simulation of what the RAW version achieves.

 

[trav_laney]

I can't say I agree with the charisma-based spell-casting. The archetype of the Eldritch Knight is definitely wizard-based, with all the versatility that entails.

Why wizard? It is just as easy for a sorcerer to qualify for this PrC, and a bard could be very effective in this class as well (considering all of those crunchy class skills.) Sure, a sorc would have to be 6th level, and a bard would have to be 7th level to qualify (instead of 5th,) but not everyone likes to steamroll their character into a prestige class as quickly as possible. Good things to those who wait.

There is certainly nothing wrong with Evoker Eldritch Knights, as you suggest. EEKs were probably the basis for the Warmage class in the Miniature's Handbook, now that I think about it...

Try a Core Class set up with the Cleric BAB progression, 2 good saves (Fort and Will), Bonus Feats at 1,5,9(weapon specialization),13,and 17, and staggered spell level access (2nd at 4th, 3rd at 7th, 4th at 10th, 5th at 12th, 6th at 15th, 7th at 18th, 8th at 20th) and you should get a pretty close simulation of what the RAW version achieves.

Good stuff...I'll see what Cleric BAB and saves do for it. But I don't care too much for non-SRD spell charts, and I really don't care for classes that give access to fighter-only feats (like Weapon Specialization). Thanks for the advice...I'll test it out.

 

[jasin]

I would like to create an arcane fighter style of a character, using the Eldritch Knight prestige class as a base.

A battle sorcerer is pretty close to a sorcerer-based eldritch knight. And I don't think it should be to hard to do a similar variant for wizards.

 

[rgard]

While some are under the impression that most of the new core classes should instead be prestige classes (and there is certainly nothing wrong with that point of view,) I think that it should be the other way around...I think that a lot of prestige classes out there should be core classes instead. Maybe it is just a throwback to the days of "kits."

I would like to create an arcane fighter style of a character, using the Eldritch Knight prestige class as a base. (I know that there are many new "arcane fighter" classes out there already, but I don't care for them too much.) So before I spent a lot of time doing a formal write-up, I wanted to get some feedback from the gamers in this forum.

These are my notes. And as always, if someone has already done this, please point me in the proper direction.

Hit Dice:        d6
Base Attack:     full
Saves:           Good fort
Class Skills:    Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Jump, Knowledge
                 (arcana), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Ride, Sense Motive,
                 Spellcraft, Swim.
Skill Points:    2 + Int modifier
Weapon prof      all simple and martial
Armor prof:      light
Shield prof:     none

Class Features:
----------------------------------
- Bonus spells and save DCs based on Charisma (Intelligence?)
- Spells spontaneously cast, as sorcerer (or prepared, as wizard?)
- Spells per day/spells known as bard.
- Use sor/wiz spell list.
- Can cast spells in light armor with no %ASF.
- Bonus feat at 1st level, and every 5th level.
  These bonus feats must be Item Creation, Metamagic, or Fighter feats.

I think it is balanced for the most part, but the thing that a lot of players are going to trip over is that the class cannot learn 7th, 8th, or 9th level sor/wiz spells (thanks to the "as a bard" spell progression.) But I thought that it was a lot better option than cutting the caster level. What do you think?

Another thing is, should I make it a spontaneous caster ala the sorcerer, or a prepared caster ala wizard? I know it is a matter of personal preference, but I don't want to make it "player's choice."

Check out the Battle Sorcerer in UA. I think it does what you are looking for.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[trav_laney]

Check out the Battle Sorcerer in UA. I think it does what you are looking for.

Yeah, I checked it out...and it doesn't suck. It is currently the version of sorcerer that I am using in my campaign, in fact. But after playing it for a few months, I found too many things in it that I wanted to change (hit dice was too high, BAT was too low, saves didn't feel right, no new weapon profs, no spellcasting in armor, skills didn't make sense, and so on.)

Old_Skool might appreciate what I am trying to do...I am trying to make a balanced class that has more of a "Red Box Rules" Elf feel to it. Remember when Elf was a class?

 

[Grimstaff]

Yeah, I checked it out...and it doesn't suck. It is currently the version of sorcerer that I am using in my campaign, in fact. But after playing it for a few months, I found too many things in it that I wanted to change (hit dice was too high, BAT was too low, saves didn't feel right, no new weapon profs, no spellcasting in armor, skills didn't make sense, and so on

I'm not sure you're thinking of the same Battle Sorcerer as the one in UA (though I'm unaware of another). The Battle Sorcerer does get armor, an improved BAB, and the same skills as Sorcerer plus Intimidation. But the spell selection sucks. Oh, and you also get a new weapon proficiency.

 

[Grimstaff]

How about a Battle-Wizard modeled after the battle sorcerer?

Wizard Variant: Battle Wizard

The battle wizard is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, he is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die: d6.

Base Attack Bonus:

The battle wizard uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills:

Remove Decipher Script from the battle wizard's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle wizard's class skill list.

Class Features:

The battle wizard has all the standard wizard class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:

At 1st level, a battle wizard gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting:

A battle wizard can cast wizard spells derived from her class levels of battle wizard while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle wizard has fewer daily spell slots than a standard wizard. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Wizard (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle wizard may cast two 0-level spells and zero 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

Battle wizards may also be specialist wizards, with the normal beneifts and penalties applicable.

 

[Grimstaff]

Ok, lets see where that Battle-Wizard ends up at 10th and 20th level, so we can compare to the other versions we've looked at so far. I'll stick with the Evoker for now...

Battle-Evoker10: BAB+7; Fort+3 Ref+3 Will+7; Spells 4/4/4/3/3/2; Feats 8

Battle-Evoker20: BAB+15; Fort+6 Ref+6 Will+12; Spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4; Feats 13

SO, even with the spell-per-day loss of the variant, the class still has the best access to higher level spells of the options so far. It comes up a little weaker in the saves department, but BAB is still pretty good and feats are plentiful. Add the use of light armor with spellcasting (or better armors with feats from CA) and the defensive options are a little better, though weapon proficiencies are still limited. A strong option to counter-act may be:

Battle-Evoker16/Fighter4: BAB+16; Fort+9 Ref+6 Will+10; Spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 Feats 15

Wow, that packs quite a whallop! Keep this away from your group's munchkins...

 

[Quartz]

I think that d6 is a little too low for a combat type. d8 would be better. How about significantly restricting the magic instead? How about at first level the character only knows two schools of magic? And gets access to new schools at 4th / 8th / 12th / 16th / 20th levels?

 

[Grimstaff]

If you're going to hold back the magic so much, you may as well play a Duskblade or Hexblade.