D&D 5E Elemental Evil companion spells underwhelming?

It also means we have two tiers of casters, those who can cast fireball and those who can't. Fiend pact warlocks and Light clerics bring something extra to the table in addition to their other abilities, that other warlocks/clerics can't match.

Well, not so much. Fireball is good at some kinds of things, but it's not exactly the game-changing powerhouse that some other spells are. For example, as Shadowdweller says, Conjure Animals kind of blow it out of the water in terms of sheer effectiveness (in many but not all situations). Animate Dead has a way better concentration economy than Fireball, even if you're not a necromancer; Polymorph is a tanking spell par excellence; Planar Binding is fantastic at turning gold into combat power; Pass Without Trace is the sneak supreme; etc., etc.

Even just considering the pairings you listed above, it's not at all clear that Fireball pushes the Fiendlock over the top, since Evard's Black Tentacles on the Cthulock is arguably better (save for the concentration requirement), especially for a warlock with Repelling Blast. The Fiendlock's temp HP may or may not be better than the Cthulock's telepathy--it varies by table, and at least at my table, ability to communicate telepathically is way more coveted by the players than temp HP since diplomacy with alien creatures comes up pretty frequently. In any case, it isn't Fireball which is creating the tiers, if any. I hate clerics so can't speak for them from play experience, but the Light cleric doesn't really stand out as clearly the best.

In my experience, any situation which is dominated by Fireball is dominated by other spells as well. My Lore Bardlock found Fireball tempting, sure, but ultimately he went with Spike Growth instead, because there just aren't many situations where 8d6 in a 20' radius once is better than 20-40 points of damage to anyone crossing it (at half speed, no less) plus +10 damage per Eldritch Blast (4d4 for 10' knockback) for ten minutes. Fireball is great at killing swarms of drow, orcs or hobgoblins, but Spike Growth is equally good at either warding them off or killing them if they try to close, and they don't even get a saving throw. Other spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, and Call Lightning can also do the same job as Fireball in any situation I can think of. It's not a must-have, it's just nice to have.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well, not so much. Fireball is good at some kinds of things, but it's not exactly the game-changing powerhouse that some other spells are. For example, as Shadowdweller says, Conjure Animals kind of blow it out of the water in terms of sheer effectiveness (in many but not all situations). Animate Dead has a way better concentration economy than Fireball, even if you're not a necromancer; Polymorph is a tanking spell par excellence; Planar Binding is fantastic at turning gold into combat power; Pass Without Trace is the sneak supreme; etc., etc.
The problem is that you've managed to find the couple other spells with known balance issues and compared it to them. Polymorph is already reported to the dev team as the most broken spell in the game and they've said they were "considering solutions" to it.

Conjure Animals is broken when used in a very specific way that was fairly obviously not intended by the creators but managed to slip through. I can't remember which one, but I think it was Jeremy who said that the intention was for the DM to decide which animals come when you cast it. Which prevents most of its abuse.

Planar Binding requires you to find a powerful creature and trap it in a way that it won't move for an hour. It's not practical in most adventure's that don't have time to sit around for an hour and cast a planar binding. If you even have access to a creature for an hour straight.

Animate Dead lets you animate creatures as skeletons which don't have the best bonus to hit and die pretty easily. Beyond the first couple of levels they either don't really help you in combat or they die every combat and have to be reanimated.

Pass Without Trace is a really good sneaking spell but when you get into combat it doesn't help at all. And most adventures involve a choke point of some sort where enemies WILL see you, even with Pass Without Trace.

Even just considering the pairings you listed above, it's not at all clear that Fireball pushes the Fiendlock over the top, since Evard's Black Tentacles on the Cthulock is arguably better (save for the concentration requirement), especially for a warlock with Repelling Blast. The Fiendlock's temp HP may or may not be better than the Cthulock's telepathy--it varies by table, and at least at my table, ability to communicate telepathically is way more coveted by the players than temp HP since diplomacy with alien creatures comes up pretty frequently. In any case, it isn't Fireball which is creating the tiers, if any. I hate clerics so can't speak for them from play experience, but the Light cleric doesn't really stand out as clearly the best.

In my experience, any situation which is dominated by Fireball is dominated by other spells as well. My Lore Bardlock found Fireball tempting, sure, but ultimately he went with Spike Growth instead, because there just aren't many situations where 8d6 in a 20' radius once is better than 20-40 points of damage to anyone crossing it (at half speed, no less) plus +10 damage per Eldritch Blast (4d4 for 10' knockback) for ten minutes. Fireball is great at killing swarms of drow, orcs or hobgoblins, but Spike Growth is equally good at either warding them off or killing them if they try to close, and they don't even get a saving throw. Other spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, and Call Lightning can also do the same job as Fireball in any situation I can think of. It's not a must-have, it's just nice to have.
Here's the average situation adventurer's find themselves in:

"You walk up to the tower and open the door. Beyond is a 30x30 room with 5 Cultists. The closest one is 10 feet from the door when you open it."
We've ran into this situation in about 60-70% of all our encounters. Our party that had 4 different people who knew fireball solved these EASILY with:
"I cast fireball" "Alright, 2 out of the 5 of them die."
"I cast fireball, as well" "Alright, the other 3 die."
In an average combat we took literally 0 damage because no matter how many enemies there were in a room they were dead before they took actions.

We got so used to it that during the 1 time in 20 when we had an encounter that made fireball useless the party was at a completely loss as to what to do. One of our players used to get super angry whenever the DM would tell us to keep people alive or put random captives in the room with the enemies since it ruled out his fireball everything all the time strategy. Very quickly he decided that his character didn't care about keeping anyone alive, even prisoners and started fireballing those rooms as well.

I can tell you that the one time some decided to "get smart" and cast spike growth, the enemies all pulled out ranged weapons and focused on him until he failed a concentration check. He successfully did 0 damage and managed to get himself attacked a LOT. As for the knocking people back through it and forcing them to take damage, you should expect table variation on the ruling for that one. It says when the enemy "moves through" the area, not when they are knocked backward through it. Plus, many DMs who ran 4e know that forcing someone to move through an area and take damage became such a broken thing that almost every spell that allowed you to do it was errata'd to be once per round. Even from a role playing point of view, I think the point is that you step on all the spikes along the way and being knocked back might not involve you feet touching the ground. I know I ruled that people flying through the area weren't affected at my table.

Although Hypnotic Pattern and Confusion are both good spells, they don't do the same job as fireball. They slow down a couple of enemies but they don't kill them. You still need to use other spells or other actions to actually defeat them. Trust me, I kept TRYING to use Confusion instead of fireball as my Bard. My entire group would make fun of me. They'd be all "Well, you managed to affect 2 enemies with your confusion, it has absolutely no effect on the ones that made their saves, they get a save every round and if they roll 'attack nearest creature' or 'act normally' your spell generally doesn't do anything that round. You could have fireballed and just killed them all instead. I can not only fireball but do so in the middle of our party and ignore all our party members using my evocation ability." So I eventually used my Bard ability to pick up Fireball and then combats went even faster than before with a lot less rolling of constant saves to see if people saved that round or what actions they'd take.

Its damage is just too high. If it was lower, I'd agree that it's ONLY useful against a bunch of low level creatures. But if your choice is between a 5d4+5 Magic Missile, a 5d6 Burning Hands, a 8d6 Scorching Ray and a 8d6 Fireball, you pick the Fireball, even if there's only one monster.
 

The problem is that you've managed to find the couple other spells with known balance issues and compared it to them. Polymorph is already reported to the dev team as the most broken spell in the game and they've said they were "considering solutions" to it.

Conjure Animals is broken when used in a very specific way that was fairly obviously not intended by the creators but managed to slip through. I can't remember which one, but I think it was Jeremy who said that the intention was for the DM to decide which animals come when you cast it. Which prevents most of its abuse.

Planar Binding requires you to find a powerful creature and trap it in a way that it won't move for an hour. It's not practical in most adventure's that don't have time to sit around for an hour and cast a planar binding. If you even have access to a creature for an hour straight.

Animate Dead lets you animate creatures as skeletons which don't have the best bonus to hit and die pretty easily. Beyond the first couple of levels they either don't really help you in combat or they die every combat and have to be reanimated.

Pass Without Trace is a really good sneaking spell but when you get into combat it doesn't help at all. And most adventures involve a choke point of some sort where enemies WILL see you, even with Pass Without Trace.

Sorry, I'm short on time so I'll just respond quickly to your spell critiques:

1.) You're thinking of Conjure Woodland Creatures and the pixies. That's not what I refer to when I mention Conjure Animals. Conjure Animals is a terrific spell because it casts quicker than most other conjuring spells (1 action vs. 1 minute), it gives you more minions without going over the 5th level barrier (16 CR 1/4 minions vs. 8 CR 1/4 minions for any other conjuring spell except Giant Insect and Animate Objects which give 10), and it lasts for a full hour (vs 1 minute for Animate Object or ten minutes for Giant Insect). The dev ruling doesn't hurt Conjure Animals in any real way: there aren't any CR 1/4 animals that it would be bad to get 16 of for a 5th level slot. It's way better and more efficient than Fireball.

2.) It's straightforward to get an elemental for an hour, and then you Planar Bind that. At higher levels you can Gate or similar, but elementals work just fine.

3.) Skeletons don't die that easily. They have missile weapons so they can stay in dispersed formation, and you can boost their HP further with Inspiring Leader. More importantly, who cares if they die? Soaking damage is a worthwhile function of summons, and they're expendable. The real point of Animate Dead is that it has zero concentration cost. Think of it Animate Dead V as a Spiritual Weapon variant which lasts all day and gives you five attacks instead of one, but is not invulnerable. You don't have to blow all of your spell slots on it, but you won't regret casting it once or twice per day (except for RP reasons). It's way more game-changing than Fireball at any rate.

I emphasize that Animate Dead has a fluff cost and some logistic cost. Unlike Spiritual Weapon it can cause you legal and/or roleplaying problems, and is not suitable for all campaigns. It's still more game-changing than Fireball though (in my humble opinion) and counteracts the "two tier" problem being asserted. A Death Cleric doesn't get Fireball like a Light Cleric does, but he does get Animate Dead, which is just as good or better, but in a different way.

4.) Pass Without Trace does help you in combat, in the sense of letting you get a free surprise round with advantage on your first attack of that round. Perhaps more important, it lets you seize the tactical initiative (in a non-jargon sense). Instead of you reacting to them, it's them reacting to you. Tell me that's not important.

Your "cast Fireball x2" scenario would turn out the same way if PCs were casting Hypnotic Pattern twice. Five low-level cultists in a tiny room just aren't a big deal as a threat, especially if you seize the initiative by casting two spells before they can act. See above ("Pass Without Trace") for the value of seizing initiative. Unlike Pass Without Trace, Hypnotic Pattern x2 still works if there are five 93 HP umber hulks inside instead of five 9 HP Cultists.

The "smart guy" with Spike Growth would have been smarter to get out of line of sight of the inside of the tiny tower. They'd have to move through the Spike Growth in order to get a shot at him to break his concentration.

It sounds like your game is tilted towards low-HP creatures in enclosed spaces, basically AD&D Gold Box style. In those scenarios Fireball is indeed quite good. If you knew the whole campaign was going to be like that, yes, you would pick a Light Cleric over a Death Cleric and a Fiendlock over a Feylock. I don't think that result generalizes to other people's games though, it's just a peculiarity of your particular DM's encounters. For example, if the five cultists were spread out around a small gymnasium (120' x 80') when the adventurers entered, you'd need twice as many Fireballs to kill them all but not twice as many Eldritch Blasts.

P.S. Also, really? Five cultists against four mid-level PCs? Wow. That's not even an Easy encounter. Under the circumstances your DM should be proud of making you blow two whole 3rd level slots on it.
 
Last edited:

At 8d8, it makes every damaging spell above 3rd level useless since a fireball scaled to that level is generally better.
I actually don't mind that. Fireball is amazingly iconic. I don't really see a problem with fireball being the best damage spell when scaled to the appropriate level, as long as other offensive spells have other things going for them - huge area and Con save for cone of cold, necrotic damage and the situational use when you have undead/construct allies for Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting, and so on. I'm perfectly OK with fireball being the go-to spell for dealing damage until you get meteor swarm, which after all is just more fireballs.
 

I actually don't mind that. Fireball is amazingly iconic. I don't really see a problem with fireball being the best damage spell when scaled to the appropriate level, as long as other offensive spells have other things going for them - huge area and Con save for cone of cold, necrotic damage and the situational use when you have undead/construct allies for Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting, and so on. I'm perfectly OK with fireball being the go-to spell for dealing damage until you get meteor swarm, which after all is just more fireballs.

No matter how "iconic" a spell is, an 8th level spell should always be better than a 3rd level spell. There shouldn't even be a contest. As for dealing necrotic damage, there's circle of death at 6th level for that, and that spell also puts horrid wilting to shame. Circle of death is also a terrible spell for its level, so for an 8th level spell to be below that very low bar is pathetic indeed.

Besides, fireball isn't the amazing spell that some people think it is. Granted, at 5th level when you first get it, dealing an average of 28 damage to a large area is pretty powerful. But as levels go up and monster hp rapidly inflate, fireball quickly loses its luster. The measly 1d6/spell level scaling doesn't help. This is true of most blasting spells in general in 5e. They just don't keep pace with monster hp inflation, so they're really only viable at very low levels or for after you've already got a concentration effect going and you have nothing better to do.

Meteor swarm is a notable exception, but that's only because it quite literally blows all other damaging spells out of the water. At 40d6 damage (avg. 140), it actually deals enough damage to be viable at its spell level. A 9th level fireball, by comparison, deals only 14d6 (avg. 49) damage. It doesn't even come close. Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting is 8th level, just one level below meteor swarm. It should be very impressive, as most 8th level spells are. Compare it to sunburst, which deals a similar amount of damage but also blinds many creatures and doesn't require concentration to keep them blinded. Compare it to maze, which can take a monster out of a fight for a minimum of 1 round with no saving throw, and requires a DC 20 Int check to escape. A mediocre blast doesn't deserve to be an 8th level spell. If a spell is going to do nothing but damage at that level, it should do a lot.
 

Comparing many aoe damage spells, it really looks like the 8th level options are on par with each other.
Wilting 10d8 -> 45, Con save doesn't hurt undead
Sunburst 12d6 -> 42, Huge Blind
Incendiary Cloud 10d8 -> 45, Flows away from you and can hit a lot of things potentially
Fireball(8) 13d6 -> 45.5 No bonuses
Cone of Cold(8) 11d8 -> 49.5 no other bonuses
Circle of Death(8) 12d6 -> 42 no other bonuses
Ice Storm(8) 4d6 + 6d8 -> 41, difficult terrain

Fireball in an 8th level slot is an 8th level spell. So it should be on par with other 8th level spells. I agree this breaks down at level 9, I think they could have used 7 and 8 to represent another level of damaging spells and had the scaling work differently, but it would have been much more complicated, so I don't know if it would have been better overall. However right now none of the options are far off from each other damage wise.

This is in line with their goal for multiclassing spellcasters. You can use your lower level spells in higher level slots without feeling worthless. So the Wizard 10 Cleric 10 has fireball to cast at level 8 and it does about as much damage as the other level 8 spells. They have to give up the raw power of level 9 for the versatility of the multiclass, and they can't take the non-damaging 8th level spells some of which provide great utility.

Overall saying fireball is overpowered when a level 8 fireball does as much damage as other level 8 spells seems strange when this was pretty much the whole goal of spells scaling with spell slot.
 

No matter how "iconic" a spell is, an 8th level spell should always be better than a 3rd level spell. There shouldn't even be a contest.
But a fireball dealing 13d6 damage is an 8th level spell. It should be comparable to other 8th level spells, at least in raw power. I'm OK with other 8th level spells dealing similar or slightly lower damage and have riders (e.g. sunburst), but the damage aspect of fireball cast at 8th level should be comparable to other 8th level spells.

And an 8th level fireball dealing comparable damage to other 8th level spells is, in my mind, a feature, and a strength for wizards. It means that a high-level wizard can more or less rely on fireball and maybe one other spell (e.g. cone of cold or lightning bolt, in order to deal with fire-resistant targets) for blasting, and prepare a greater array of non-damaging spells for utility uses. A 15th level wizard will probably have 20 spells prepared, and it would suck if they had to spend 5 or so of them on damage spells of varying levels.
 

But a fireball dealing 13d6 damage is an 8th level spell. It should be comparable to other 8th level spells, at least in raw power. I'm OK with other 8th level spells dealing similar or slightly lower damage and have riders (e.g. sunburst), but the damage aspect of fireball cast at 8th level should be comparable to other 8th level spells.

And an 8th level fireball dealing comparable damage to other 8th level spells is, in my mind, a feature, and a strength for wizards. It means that a high-level wizard can more or less rely on fireball and maybe one other spell (e.g. cone of cold or lightning bolt, in order to deal with fire-resistant targets) for blasting, and prepare a greater array of non-damaging spells for utility uses. A 15th level wizard will probably have 20 spells prepared, and it would suck if they had to spend 5 or so of them on damage spells of varying levels.

The main problem I have with horrid wilting isn't its damage, it's the lack of any other secondary effect or other advantages. Sunburst does similar damage to an 8th level fireball, but it also has a huge area of effect and blinds enemies. Those factors give players a reason to use it instead of just casting fireball. Horrid wilting has no other advantages. If it did something more than just deal damage, like inflict a level or two of exhaustion, it might be worth using.
 

Fireball in an 8th level slot is an 8th level spell. So it should be on par with other 8th level spells.

A lower level spell cast in a higher level slot should be just as effective in some ways, but the higher level spells should still be better overall, otherwise there's no reason for them to even exist. If you could just cast lower level spells in higher level slots and they'd be just as good, why even prepare a higher level spell, which is much more limited in that it can only be cast with the higher level slot? There has to be an upgrade in power or else there's no point.

For most higher level spells, there is an upgrade in power. Scorching ray is better than a 2nd level magic missile. A fireball is better than a 3rd level shatter. A sunburst is better than an 8th level fireball. An 8th level fireball can still be good, and that's great. It lets a multiclass character still remain relevant and it let's a single class wizard get by with just a few lower level combat spells if he wants to prepare more utility spells. On the other hand, there also needs to be a reason to devote one of your 20 or so prepared spells to that 8th level spell that can only cast (at most) twice per day.
 


Remove ads

Top