Elemental Planes Killed

[Jer]

I don't mean this response to be flippant, either, but why have really tall and pointed mountains? Or why have really deep oceans? They make really lame adventure sites, too.

But - I still don't get it. There can be really high mountains or really deep oceans in the world that people can't access - so what? They don't need to be named, or have rules for going there do they?

What game purpose does an Elemental Plane of Fire fulfill it isn't an adventure site? Is it needed for background? Is it needed because it's always been there? Is it needed because we can't move elementals and genies and other elemental plane natives somewhere else? I just don't see why we need to have an Elemental Plane of Fire in the game if it isn't going to be giving something to the game.

(To put it another way - deep oceans and high mountains are assumed to be part of the setting because they're part of the real world. We expect there might be deep ocean trenches and high mountain peaks in the world even if we never go there because of our assumptions of what a world is like. But we don't have an Elemental Plane of Fire in our real world, so what purpose does it serve in the fictional one? And if it doesn't serve a purpose in the fictional world, why is it there?)

 

[Remathilis]

The problem is not "deep ocean" or "vast sky" but the fact thats ALL there is makes it hard to believe. So most elemental planes aren't very "pure" anyway...

To Whit...

* When you enter the elemental plane of fire, what EXACTLY are you standing on?
* What is the City of Glass built on?
* How does one even MOVE in solid rock?

Etc, Etc...

So Planes that make a bit more sense (a fire plane that is more like Avernus or Gehenna) or an elemental plane of water WITH a bottom (but endless water to surface...) makes a bit more sense and is easier to design for than the cheats supplied above.

 

[Dire Bare]

If the elemental planes are killed ...


WHO TOOK THEIR STUFF??!????/??/?

The para and quasi elemental planes. That's my guess is that we replace the planes of Fire, Water, Fire, and Earth with the planes of Ooze, Salt, Lightning, and so on.

(joke)

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Jer -

Your point and my points are really the same. What I would argue is that the game designers could easily drop the elemental planes in favor of a more adventurous place. But if they do, they should not call them the plane of ____. I also think that there is nothing wrong with having an elemental plane of ____ where the elemental of ____ comes from and it is assumed that if a player visits there they will likely burn/suffocate/drown/fall forever without the proper spell to counter the planar effects. I thik both options are viable, but if the elemental planes are kept they should be largely inhospitable (and they don't need to be fleshed out much if they are - kindof like the "deep places" or "high mountains).

Remathilis -

I disagree that an elemental plane of water with a bottom is believable. If anything, that makes it less believable. The elemental plane of water is just water. It is a comparison that breaks down if stretched too far, but imagine a gas giant planet made up of water instead of gas. To me, that is what the elemental plane of water should be. It is simply that: a plane of water. Same with fire, earth, etc. That is precisely what makes them inhospitable. Without the right spells you can't move and thus suffocate on the elemental plane of earth because you are stuck in rock. You can't move and burn to a crisp in a matter of seconds on the plane of fire without the protective spels. You drown really quickly in the elemental plane of water without the protective spells. And you fall forever in the plane of air without the ability to fly from some source.

To have a "ground" to walk on in the plane of air makes it no longer the plane of air. Now, it is an alternate prime material plane and should be given a name. Ditto for the other planes.

And of course, this is just in my opinion, not doctrine by any means!

 

[Cadfan]

Remathilis- Once upon a time, the elemental plane of fire didn't have anywhere to stand. It had fire. The closest it came to having terrain was having some parts hotter than others. There were specific spells to let you go there and survive.

Personally, I've never liked the plane system, so I don't care much what happens to it. If they overhaul it, maybe I'll like the next one. Maybe not. Can't really get worse.

I should amend that... I like the plane of shadow. Its usable on its own as a screwed up alternate version of reality. That's always fun.

 

[Jer]

Jer -

Your point and my points are really the same. What I would argue is that the game designers could easily drop the elemental planes in favor of a more adventurous place. But if they do, they should not call them the plane of ____. I also think that there is nothing wrong with having an elemental plane of ____ where the elemental of ____ comes from and it is assumed that if a player visits there they will likely burn/suffocate/drown/fall forever without the proper spell to counter the planar effects. I thik both options are viable, but if the elemental planes are kept they should be largely inhospitable (and they don't need to be fleshed out much if they are - kindof like the "deep places" or "high mountains).

I can kind of see what you're saying here, but I'm still wondering what you might think the purpose of having an elemental plane that isn't a location that the PCs are supposed to visit would be.

And I think that reason would color my impressions on what the elemental planes should look like or what names they should have. If the elemental planes are only there for flavor reasons - like they "power elemental spells" or something like that - then I could see just making them planes of pure matter/energy and leaving it. If they're supposed to be the home of particular creatures - elementals, genies, whatever - then players are going to expect to be able to go there eventually, if only to hunt down some villain who got away from them. In that case they need to be usable as adventure sites - even if they're only accessible to powerful characters they should still be good adventure sites for those powerful characters.

 

[Grazzt]

If the elemental planes are killed ...


WHO TOOK THEIR STUFF??!????/??/?

Para-elemental or quasi-elemental planes?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I can kind of see what you're saying here, but I'm still wondering what you might think the purpose of having an elemental plane that isn't a location that the PCs are supposed to visit would be.

I think you point to my reasoning later in your post. It might power spells. It might be the home of elementals. It might be the place where _____ energy comes from. A lot of the need for elemental planes depends upon if the DM takes the time to flesh out the world enough to explain certain things or if the DM just assumes if the stuff is in the rulebooks it happens because the game isn't RL.

In any case, I totally agree that if a place isn't intended for adventuring it doesn't need a great write-up.

If they're supposed to be the home of particular creatures - elementals, genies, whatever - then players are going to expect to be able to go there eventually, if only to hunt down some villain who got away from them. In that case they need to be usable as adventure sites - even if they're only accessible to powerful characters they should still be good adventure sites for those powerful characters.

With this (especially the homes of genies, etc) I would hope that WotC would do the smart thing and seperate the elemental planes from an alternate material plane focused on a certain type of energy. For example, Salamanders might come from Firopia (or whatever) that is like an alternate material plane with magma lakes, breathable air, flame trees, etc. But these should not be the elemental planes ... they should be an alternate plane.

 

[TwoSix]

So, are we also going to see the elimination of deep water from D&D? I mean, the bottoms of oceans make pretty poor adventure locations. The skies, too; who adventures at 30,000 feet in the air? Why stop at getting rid of the Elemental Planes, if we're going to get rid of places that are "boring"?

Elimination of the sky and ocean would have a pretty large effect on verisimilitude, I think.

It's not like we were exactly lacking places to have planar adventures, as any fan of Planescape can attest. And it's trivial to add new planes while leaving old ones intact; it's not like, say, the geography of Faerun, where the presence of Kara-Tur on the eastern end of the continent stops designers from putting something else there. These new planes could co-exist perfectly fine with the old ones. Why get rid of the old ones, unless your goal is to change things purely for the sake of change?

Why keep the old ones, unless your goal is stasis purely for the sake of stagnation?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Why keep the old ones, unless your goal is stasis purely for the sake of stagnation?

Well, I would imagine that there are a number of gamers who have transitioned through the versions. Anyone can throw out the updated fluff and revert back to an older generation for the sake of continuity, but sometimes it is a pain - especially when recruiting new players.

Why not keep it if there is a large enough population who are going to throw out whatever is put in there in favor of that which makes their games continuous from prior versions? I don't think all the DMs who are converting to 4e and have a reason to keep an elemental plane of _____ really deserve to be considered as stagnating. I think they have a realistic stake in the discussion.

As for making more useful adventuring spaces, see my earlier posts.