Elemental Princes of Evil / Archomentals

I don't have the page numbers here at work, but in RttToEE, Imix is brought forth at the end, and the plan was as follows: The entire Nodes of elemental evil were designed to draw forth the Princes of elemental Evil because as the spawn of the Elder Elemental God, Ghaunadaur, which is in essence just a figurehead god for Tharizdun, the archomentals had the ability to open the great black gate in the ethereal that leads to Tharizdun's sleep/prison - each individually has a 20% chance to open the door, but gets annhiliated by it - if multiples of the archomentals touch the gate at the same time, the total chance to release Tharizdun rises. I don't remember if the Nodes also convince/compell the archomentals to touch the gate once called. I believe that it also states in RttToEE that Iuz and Zuggtmoy co-opted the Temple of Elemental Evil, or were led astray to build it by the followers of Tharizdun unaware of its true purpose.
 

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Thanks, if you can. :)

Can anyone tell me what these archomentals' involvement was in the Egg of the Phoenix modules?

Any answers on this other stuff?

BOZ said:
Do we know anything more about the early origins of the archomentals, other than Tharizdun may have spawned them? (anyone have a page number for RotToEE where their parentage is confirmed?) What is/was their relationship to him besides that, if any? Any indication as to how old they are? Compared to other ancient beings, like the Queen of Chaos, or certain ancient demons, or the gods?

I won't be using Bwimb (just the original 5), though I may toss his/her name around a bit. Of course, now that I think of it, what sort of relationship did the 5 main evil archomentals have with the lesser folks (like Ehkahk and Chilimba)? Allies, rivals, etc?

IIRC, I think some of them were responsible for creating their good-aligned counterparts (Zaaman Rul is apparently the son of Imix, for example); are all of the origins of the good archomentals described? Did the evil archomentals create any other beings?

What, if any, is their relationship with Grumbar, Istishia, Akadi, and Kossuth?

Do we know if these 5 have any established relationships with other gods? What about archfiends? (curious to see if they are mentioned in FC1, but that won't help me at the moment)

Do these 5 archomentals have any other notable servants, or creations, artifacts, notable allies? Who are their enemies (besides each other), and do we know how these relationships formed? The "why's" are often more important than the "how's".
 

BOZ said:
Do we know anything more about the early origins of the archomentals, other than Tharizdun may have spawned them? (anyone have a page number for RotToEE where their parentage is confirmed?) What is/was their relationship to him besides that, if any? Any indication as to how old they are? Compared to other ancient beings, like the Queen of Chaos, or certain ancient demons, or the gods?

Given that the Queen of Chaos had an Abyssal Lord (albeit not apparently one of otherwise important note in the Abyss or the Blood War) as a consort, one can assume that the evil Archomentals are at least as old as them.

If we assume that Tharizdun was a conventional deity, the product of manifest mortal belief, the archomentals as his spawn, are going to have been birthed sometime after the emergence of deities, which is comparatively late in the grand scheme of the chronology of the Blood War (and the Lower planes predated that for some time themselves in their formative period).

I won't be using Bwimb (just the original 5), though I may toss his/her name around a bit. Of course, now that I think of it, what sort of relationship did the 5 main evil archomentals have with the lesser folks (like Ehkahk and Chilimba)? Allies, rivals, etc?

You really need to go through the PSMCIII and the 'Inner Planes' book, as it details all of this.

IIRC, I think some of them were responsible for creating their good-aligned counterparts (Zaaman Rul is apparently the son of Imix, for example); are all of the origins of the good archomentals described? Did the evil archomentals create any other beings?

Only Zaman-Rul had an origin linked to the evil archomentals (as Imix's son).

What, if any, is their relationship with Grumbar, Istishia, Akadi, and Kossuth?

The archomentals, both good and evil, weren't anywhere in the same ballpark as the true neutral elemental lords. It was wide speculated that the elemental lords played them like puppets, keeping them balanced against one another, or against rival archomentals of opposed alignments. Suffice to say, they were not any sort of remote threat against Grumbar, Ishtishia, Akadi, or Kossuth.

Do we know if these 5 have any established relationships with other gods? What about archfiends? (curious to see if they are mentioned in FC1, but that won't help me at the moment)

I don't much recall, but I do believe that a Pit Fiend had some sort of heavy involvement with Imix at some point. One of the PS sources elaborates upon that more fully.
 

While Dungeon 124 says Ogremoch was at the final battle, my contention is that all of the Elemental Princes extant at the time of the Inner Planar conflict that became the Law/Chaos war were in some way involved in the war. They very definitely would have been on different sides--we're talking about millions of years ago, so there's plenty of time for alliances to shift.

Ogremoch fought for Chaos in the conflict, not just at the battle of Pesh, but for most of the duration. Most of the others did as well, in my view. It's safe to assume Chan was involved as well in some capacity, for though the book that bears her name is a forgery, her name was most likely chosen for it because she was involved in the conflict.

--Erik
 

According to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, the Princes of Elemental Evil were spawn or creations of Tharizdun. I think it is implied that their very purpose might have always been to one day free He Who Must Never Awaken.
 

Ok, so the basics are covered in RttToEE pgs 4-7 (Tharizdun/The Dark God/The Elder Elemental Eye, History, & The Course of the Adventure Sections)

Part 3: The Rebirth of Elemental Evil on pg 137, The Triad's Plan, describes the basic method of how the Evil Elemental Princes are involved in the freeing of Tharizdun, and on the same page under The Other Nodes and Princes notes that in this instance the only Elemental Princes considered to be relevant to freeing Tharizdun (and thus likely his direct progeny) are Imix, Yn-C-Bin, Olhydra, and Ogremoch.

Also in part three, pg 149, Room 30 Inner Chamber, describes the exact process by which the Evil Elemental Princes can free Tharizdun. The princes are not destroyed in the process, success or fail, but a powerful artifact is (the Orb of Oblivion).

And that's what I know...
 

BOZ said:
Do we know anything more about the early origins of the archomentals, other than Tharizdun may have spawned them?

Not really. I had the idea that they were something like stupendously powerful grue. Grue, as you know, are created from evil spells being cast in the elemental planes, forming around cores of vile magic. The Elemental Princes of Evil formed similarly from the keys to Tharizdun's prison.

Not official, of course.

I won't be using Bwimb (just the original 5), though I may toss his/her name around a bit. Of course, now that I think of it, what sort of relationship did the 5 main evil archomentals have with the lesser folks (like Ehkahk and Chilimba)?

Bwimb was the most powerful known of the ooze paraelementals. He was apparently evil (his "daughter," Bwimb II, certainly is, and has an alliance with Juiblex), and really not so different from, say, Cryonax, who is the most powerful known of the ice paraelementals.

The others aren't elementals, and thus can't really be called archomentals. Ehkahk is an unusually brilliant smoke mephit. Chilimba is a magma mephit/magma paraelemental crossbreed trained by the baatezu.

The 1st edition Manual of the Planes defined archomentals the best, I think. Broadly, they're the second tier of elemental power, after the elemental rulers Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth. On most planes there are more than just two of them - they're of various alignments and beliefs. There's no reason there couldn't be Elemental Princes of Law and Chaos, for example.

I'd say they were somewhere between the elemental rulers and the primal elementals in power (of that they're simply more intelligent versions of the primal elementals). In 1e, they were equivalent to demigods.

Do we know if these 5 have any established relationships with other gods? What about archfiends?

No, just Tharizdun I think. Bwimb II has an alliance with Juiblex, as I mentioned.

Do these 5 archomentals have any other notable servants, or creations, artifacts, notable allies? Who are their enemies (besides each other), and do we know how these relationships formed?

Imix's greatest foe is Olhydra, with his son Zaaman Rul a distant second. Ogremoch's greatest foe is Sunnis. Olhydra has alliances among the hezrou tanar'ri. Her greatest foe is Imix, and she completely ignores Ben-hadar. Yan-C-Bin is engaged in a subtle cold war against Chan (the two have never actually met, but compete in information-gathering and spying). Ogremoch and Yan-C-Bin are enemies, but their hatred is not as vehement as Imix's and Olhydra's.

The origin of these disputes is pretty obvious: it's all about natural elemental and moral antipathies.

Cryonax's primary rival is Albrathanilar, greatest of the white dragons of the paraplane of Ice. Albrathanilar is also a powerful and crafty wizard, a worthy foe of the archomental prince. They are rivals simply because they're the two most powerful individuals on the plane, and they have incompatible goals.

The four elemental rulers are distant and removed from the archomentals and their petty squabbles.

Chilimba studied torture under a powerful pit fiend. Imix is served by a pit fiend general called Asgeroth.

There are a few named servants of the various archomentals. A dwarven warrior/priest called Kaylef once served Ogremoch, but he was found wanting and cast aside, though he is still filled with great power. Imix has his general Asgeroth. Olhydra is served by a trio of sea hags called the Blue Coven.

I'm not aware of any other interactions between archomentals and gods, but a look at a list of which gods live on what plane might give you some ideas. Oh, wait: there's a disagreement between Olhydra and Cegilune over the matter of the Blue Coven.

That's interesting. :) Is their involvement in the setting more of an "oh, by the way" mentioning, or do they have more direct involvement and interests therein? I may not use the AQ stuff much at all, but it might just be interesting for me to know.

Mostly "oh, by the way." Imix's shrine in the City of Brass is called the Mosque of Blistering Atonement, and it's briefly described in Secrets of the Lamp. Exactly which archomental the djinn stole their Court of Ice and Steel from is a bit muddled. The text says "Inix, Princess of Elemental Evil," but as Imix is male and is unlikely to build with ice, Wolfgang Baur probably meant Olhydra, the only Princess of Elemental Evil there is other than Bwimb II, who didn't exist yet (and she's more properly a baroness). On the other hand, Yan-C-Bin (who shares a plane with the djinn) and Cryonax (who is more associated with ice than any of them) are also candidates.

The monster sheet on ildriss (air grue) says they're all servants or spies of Yan-C-Bin. There are also good ildriss, called "fog ildriss," who have abandoned Yan-C-Bin's worship.
 


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