Elementary Essentials: eliminating level bonuses & stacking.

[Kzach]

EDITING THE EDIT: I've changed the thread title 'cause I now have a clearer picture on what I'm doing and in what direction I'm taking this project. I'll be focusing on using only Essentials classes to achieve my goals with these custom rules.

EDIT: I should point out that I'm constantly changing the quoted rules as I see the need, rather than creating a new post.

I couldn't think up a good title for this thread, as you can see. People would just complain I mislead them whichever way I decided to go so I just left it up to them to decide.

Basically I've been tinkering a lot with 4e lately in an effort to correct the things in it I don't like whilst maintaining all the things that I do like. There have been some really interesting discussions and I've garnered a lot of inspiration and new ideas from people whilst searching, hence all the threads I've been making asking about alternate rules lately.

I've come up with some preliminary ideas on a how one could alter 4e to 'fix' a lot of the perceived problems with it whilst maintaining a lot of what makes it a good edition and fun to play. Now of course there's argument as to what even needs fixing and also in how to fix it. I don't claim this to be a One Ring, I'm just putting it out there 'cause I think it could be a fix FOR SOME people, one of them being me.

So if you don't like it, fair enough, feel free to move on and use some other rule. This won't affect your life in the slightest if I or others like it and decide to use it. We don't need to know how much it sucks and how it's going to ruin D&D. I am, however, more than happy to hear constructive criticism and helpful input.

Anyway, without further adieu here's my basic rules. Keep in mind that they're just in the conceptualisation stage right now. I'm just theorising on how something like this could work. It's by no means tested or vetted by God or any other deity. It's just some musings I'm posting here for discussion and hopefully some clarification and fine-tuning.

Character Creation & Levelling

No level-based increases to abilities, attacks, defences, skills or hit points. The exception to this rule is that at 11th and 21st-levels, the character gains a +1 bonus to all ability scores, attacks, defences and skills, and gains their class bonus hit point amount to their hit point total as well. In addition the character can add a background and it’s associated benefit at these levels.

16 (before racial bonuses) is now the ability cap for all abilities on character creation (assuming standard point buy is used).


Stacking

Bonuses from feats, items and powers do not stack with each other, but everything stacks with ability-based, class-based, theme-based and background-based bonuses. Therefore you could stack Dex with Sneak Attack and the Light Blade Expertise feat all together, however having Weapon Focus (light blade) would not stack with the bonus from Light Blade Expertise. The same goes for a power source such as Backstab which would stack with Sneak Attack and Dex, but not with Light Blade Expertise.

Exceptions to this are base armour values and weapon proficiency bonuses which stack with everything, as do weapon property bonuses (excepting superior implements).


Items

There are no magical plusses to attacks, defences or damage from magical items. Crit dice still apply based on the CHARACTER’S level, not the item’s level. So a 1st-level magical sword wielded by a 30th-level character will have 6 x crit dice (if it has crit dice at all).

Magical items are now exceptionally rare with a character expecting to get one item every three levels. This is because magical items now require more than just residuum or gold. They now require extremely rare and very hard to find, let alone acquire, items of immense power and value (commensurate with the power of the item). Creating a magical item is something that adventuring parties quest to complete. The Enchant Magical Item ritual remains the same with the exception of a DM fiat required item to complete any item.

Any magical item that determines a bonus by level will automatically increase in value based on the level of the wearer, ie. Battle Harness worn by a 1st-level character will confer a +1 bonus to initiative whereas if worn by a 30th-level character will confer a +6 bonus to initiative.

Potions and scrolls are far more readily available and rituals and alchemical items are also much more widely used. Coinage gains remain the same. Where a magical item is indicated on a treasure parcel, substitute a potion, scroll, ritual or alchemical item in its stead. Magical items should be given out as story awards based on the DM's imagination rather than as part of any 'parcel'.

Masterwork Items are replaced with masterwork weapons and implements that can confer a +1 bonus to attacks. Masterwork armours can confer a +1 bonus to AC. All magical items are masterwork but not all masterwork items are magical. Masterwork boots can confer a +1 Reflex bonus. Masterwork waist items can confer a +1 Fortitude bonus. Masterwork head items can confer a +1 Will bonus. These bonuses function like item bonuses and therefore do NOT stack with feats, item bonuses or powers.


Powers

At-will powers do not increase in damage at 21st level.


Monsters

All monsters have their level divided by 5 and reduced to the rounded up number (minimum 1) using the Monster Builder. It’s as easy as sliding the scale to the left. Some monsters may require minor tweaks, especially to Initiative, Perception and some ability scores. Other than that, most should be ready to roll with just by using the slider.


Feats

All feats that give a non-conditional bonus to any attack, defence or damage have this bonus withdrawn.

Banned Feats: Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Superior Fortitude, Superior Reflexes, Superior Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Champion’s Countenence, Robust Defences, Paragon Defences.

Altered Feats: Toughness (3, 6, 9 hit points), Superior Fortitude (no bonus), Superior Reflexes (no bonus), Superior Will (no bonus), (Various weapon) Expertise (no hit bonus), Master at Arms (no hit bonus).

 

[Rune]

I'm curious about the no-stacking part. It seems as if the goal is to remove synergies, but I'm not exactly sure why this is desirable to you.

On another note, I really like how you handle magic items!

 

[Kzach]

I'm curious about the no-stacking part. It seems as if the goal is to remove synergies, but I'm not exactly sure why this is desirable to you.

Check out this thread for more details on this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/310236-what-if-bonuses-never-stacked.html

As for why it's desirable... why do you love your dog/parents/partner? You just do. I just like it like that.

On another note, I really like how you handle magic items!
It's actually a fairly common idea. I just took it a bit further is all 'cause the magical item paradigm in 4e wouldn't work in this sort of hack to the system.

I've always hated the idea of magical items being little more than trinkets. I like magical items to be special. Things that you hand down to your kids. Each one having a storied history of the heroes and villains who have wielded it. Gaining a total of six magical items over a 30 level career makes them far more special and precious.

Plus I hate how potions, alchemical items, scrolls and rituals are so overlooked in 4e. I like them to be truly consumable things that adventurers carry around as standard for those inevitable emergency situations, rather than something players groan over spending their precious gold on because they're struggling to keep up in the magical item plusses economy.

 

[Kzach]

I'm curious about the no-stacking part. It seems as if the goal is to remove synergies, but I'm not exactly sure why this is desirable to you.

Ok, I admit, my previous explanation was lame. I was being lazy. Now that I'm bored and looking for something to occupy me, I'll reply properly

Stacking bonuses causes so many problems in 4e. I can't claim that my alternate rules fix them all as I haven't even begun to test them out. However, on casual evaluation, it seems to certainly combat the bulk of the problem in one simple fix.

Take one of the biggest problems with 4e: Twin Strike. You can stack so much damage onto each attack that it has become the centre of the DPR universe. The ability damage being taken out of that equation is next to meaningless. Now try to using it with my rules in play. It's still good, but it will never be the uber-damage beast that makes Orcus whimper and huddle in a corner that it is now.

Same goes for charging builds. If Surprising Charge doesn't stack with Vanguard Weapon and you can't add things like Takedown Strike, Backstab, and a host of static damage bonuses to it, suddenly it becomes... ok, cool even, but not the be-all-end-all of DPR builds.

Then there's all this nonsense of Expertise feats being required, NAD bonus feats and items being required, all just to keep up to a mathematical curve that was ill-conceived and considered from the very beginning of 4e. Do away with stacking and level-based increases and suddenly it all becomes irrelevant. You maintain a balanced system because the math essentially remains the same over 30 levels.

Then imagine how much easier it would be to both DM and play? Instead of adding 200 different sources of damage and hit bonuses, you now have just three (ability + class + highest outside source, whether it be item, power or feat-based). DC's for skill challenges remain the same over thirty levels. Building encounters becomes SOOOO much easier because damage is all at a 1st-level monster base (well, there are exceptions from monster powers but I never said the system was perfect as is).

And yet you really lose very little. At the end of the day, level-based anything is just running in place solely to keep up. I've long not seen the point in it. So what if I can swat a 1st-level solo as a 30th-level character? I find that unsatisfying and boring anyway. Wouldn't it be cooler if that solo was still a minor threat to the character?

The enjoyment I get out of levelling is from gaining new stuff to play with. Whether that's a new feat or a new power or a new magical item. Bonuses to hit and damage are nice and all, but again, it's all just in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. Essentially, it's pointless.

Then you have the fact that by not being able to stack damage sources, you literally free up tons of feat slots. Imagine the cool characters you could make if you didn't have to take Expertise this and Weapon Focus that, and generic NAD increasereruppererblaaaaaaaah!

 

[RangerWickett]

4e as written is very gamist, where you as the GM know what a balanced AC or DC is, and you are supposed to layer an appropriate description on top to match the scene. You're 30th level, so an 'average' wall to climb is made of shards of glass full of demons, but your odds of climbing it are just about the same as climbing an average wall at 1st level (which was a rough rock wall with vines growing out of it).

You seem to be keeping the same mentality but flattening the numbers. So when you're 1st level, a DC 10 wall has vines. When you're 30th level, a DC 10 wall has glass demons.

I guess that works. I think it's better than the core 4e system (because this version requires less math) if your goal is balance and ease of play, but something about it makes me feel unsettled. I fully appreciate the value of game design, but sometimes I just want harder things to be harder to accomplish.

 

[Kzach]

I guess that works. I think it's better than the core 4e system (because this version requires less math) if your goal is balance and ease of play, but something about it makes me feel unsettled. I fully appreciate the value of game design, but sometimes I just want harder things to be harder to accomplish.

Nothing stopping you from making a DC 15 wall or even a DC 20 wall (in this example, I haven't crunched numbers to determine what's actually a challenge in this system).

With less feats having to be expended for 'necessary' things like attack, damage and defence increases, they can be spent on other things like skill bonuses. Plus almost every theme gives a few skill bonuses as you level. The Essentials classes also seem to offer increases to skills here and there. Powers also offer many skill bonuses, as do magical items, rituals, alchemical items, scrolls and potions.

Higher level can still mean harder challenges. It's simply that instead of relying on just a static skill bonus, you might have to use a potion instead, or a power to fly over the wall, or to climb up it like a monkey, etc. In fact if anything, this INCREASES the challenge and fun because you have to be more creative and interact with the challenge more to overcome it.

 

[Kzach]

Oh! And although I haven't quite worked the numbers out yet and am still tweaking everything, this system would also address the whole "terminal fall survivability" BS.

AND, as if that wasn't enough, any schlob with a dagger is a threat, even to a 30th-level character. Plus you can pick up any weapon and still be almost as effective with it as you would be with your special weapon of preciousness.

AND, if you buy now, I'll include a set of steak knives for FREE!

 

[the Jester]

My first impression is that this will increase grind, especially at higher levels, by reducing damage a good bit.

 

[Kzach]

My first impression is that this will increase grind, especially at higher levels, by reducing damage a good bit.

Actually by my calculations it will reduce it significantly, even to the point where I may have to increase hit points further for monsters or combats will be over in one or two rounds.

Consider a 30th-level rogue's sneak attack damage against a 30th-level solo. The solo will have around 250-300 hit points with my system whilst the rogue will be doing around 6d8+6 points of damage per hit, so say 33 points. Now add in 30th-level rogue powers, multiple attacks, action points, epic destiny powers, paragon path powers... just the 30th-level rogue vs. the 30th-level solo, the rogue will be able to reduce the solo to 0 hit points in about 7-8 rounds. Add in a party and it's 1-2 rounds. Add in the solo's buddies and it puts it at around 4-6 round which is about where it should be.

Of course, this is all just me eyeballing stuff so I could be entirely off, but I'm pretty confident that I'm not too far off.

 

[the Jester]

Oh, I missed your adjustment to monster hps!

Yeah, in that case, I'd say you need to increase monster hit points. Also, imho, you really ought to vary hps/level according to role; having a "brute" only have 3 or 4 extra hit points at 30th level is... disappointing.

Have you played any of this out? You should try it and see how it works. I'd be interested to hear a report. You and I seem to have a few overlapping goals in our respective D&D homebrewing.