Elementary Essentials: eliminating level bonuses & stacking.

[Kzach]

Yeah, in that case, I'd say you need to increase monster hit points. Also, imho, you really ought to vary hps/level according to role; having a "brute" only have 3 or 4 extra hit points at 30th level is... disappointing.

Yeah, the idea is to use the Monster Builder and slide monsters down to 1st-level. Then add hit points based on their former level. So a standard 30th-level brute would have around 65-70 hit points.

Have you played any of this out? You should try it and see how it works. I'd be interested to hear a report. You and I seem to have a few overlapping goals in our respective D&D homebrewing.

Nah, like I said I'm only in the conceptualising stage. I've gotten a lot of the theory down but I'm posting here to get some input and see what problems need solving before working on a more comprehensive breakdown. When I've got that done, I'll start testing it.

 

[Essenti]

Also, imho, you really ought to vary hps/level according to role; having a "brute" only have 3 or 4 extra hit points at 30th level is... disappointing.

I'm pretty sure those extra hit points are per level of the monster... so more like 90-120 more hit points in that case.

edit: nm... Kzach put it all in perspective again...

 

[Ferghis]

This looks interesting. I particularly like how this frees up a lot of feats, which otherwise go into pumping the same two or three values. I'd love to read how a session plays.

 

[phoffman]

4e as written is very gamist, where you as the GM know what a balanced AC or DC is, and you are supposed to layer an appropriate description on top to match the scene. You're 30th level, so an 'average' wall to climb is made of shards of glass full of demons, but your odds of climbing it are just about the same as climbing an average wall at 1st level (which was a rough rock wall with vines growing out of it).

You seem to be keeping the same mentality but flattening the numbers. So when you're 1st level, a DC 10 wall has vines. When you're 30th level, a DC 10 wall has glass demons.

I guess that works. I think it's better than the core 4e system (because this version requires less math) if your goal is balance and ease of play, but something about it makes me feel unsettled. I fully appreciate the value of game design, but sometimes I just want harder things to be harder to accomplish.

I feel the same way. Certain classes will lose out, and Rogues and Warlocks will be come king. Adding additional dice and making those "dice" d8s instead of d6s will be the king of dps. Classes that rely on the stacking bonuses to keep up with those classes will fall out. Things like the Pyromancer which relies heavily on stacking bonuses for fire damage. I see warlocks and rogues doing very well. Rangers will likely do well at low levels too, but often they rely on stacking bonuses at higher levels.

 

[Kzach]

I feel the same way. Certain classes will lose out, and Rogues and Warlocks will be come king. Adding additional dice and making those "dice" d8s instead of d6s will be the king of dps. Classes that rely on the stacking bonuses to keep up with those classes will fall out. Things like the Pyromancer which relies heavily on stacking bonuses for fire damage. I see warlocks and rogues doing very well. Rangers will likely do well at low levels too, but often they rely on stacking bonuses at higher levels.

I'll definitely keep that in mind when I get around to the testing phase.

Having said that, on a preliminary glance through striker bonus damage, I think it actually evens things out a lot more so that even the assassin becomes competitive. Just about all classes have some means to increase their striker damage through feats like Backstabber. It will make those feats 'mandatory', but that's just one feat as opposed to three or four.

As for the pyromancer, it's a controller not a striker, so... meh on it's damage output

 

[phoffman]

As for the pyromancer, it's a controller not a striker, so... meh on it's damage output

With the proper feats, a Pyromancer can as good as a sorcerer, as long as it sacrifices the control. But i also feel that it has more "Fire" powers and allows you to build a caster with just fire.

If its fine for you and your friends, then don't worry about it as long as everyone is having fun.

 

[Kzach]

With the proper feats, a Pyromancer can as good as a sorcerer, as long as it sacrifices the control. But i also feel that it has more "Fire" powers and allows you to build a caster with just fire.

Are those the same feats that a sorcerer would stack?

 

[phoffman]

Are those the same feats that a sorcerer would stack?

Yes. Mage just has more and better fire powers in my opinion. Mage (Pyromancer) have a bonuses to fire damage as part of their class feature. Those class features are expected to stack with everything else.

You could let class features stack with other bonuses, that would go a long way between the classes to help balance.

The essential classes rely heavily on stacking bonuses, So perhaps the easiest way is just to not allow those classes.

 

[Kzach]

Yes. Mage just has more and better fire powers in my opinion. Mage (Pyromancer) have a bonuses to fire damage as part of their class feature. Those class features are expected to stack with everything else.

You could let class features stack with other bonuses, that would go a long way between the classes to help balance.

The essential classes rely heavily on stacking bonuses, So perhaps the easiest way is just to not allow those classes.

So nothing would really change.

You may want to read through my suggested rules changes again.

 

[Kzach]

So, here's what a mage (pyromancer) of 12th-level might look like with this system:

[sblock]Mara-kai, level 12
Tiefling, Wizard (Mage), Master of Flame
School: Pyromancy School
School: Evocation School
Spellscarred Harbinger Starting Feature Option: Twist Fate
Spellscarred Harbinger Level 10 Feature Option: Dimension Shift
Expert Mage Option: Pyromancy School Expert
Master Mage Option: Pyromancy School Master
Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
Theme: Spellscarred Harbinger

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 17, DEX 14, INT19, WIS 9, CHA 14

AC: 16 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 16
HP: 45 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, History +10, Religion +10

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Spellscarred Harbinger Utility: Spellscar Empowerment
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Wizard Utility: Mage Hand
Wizard Utility: Prestidigitation
Wizard Utility: Light
Wizard Attack 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard Attack 1: Fountain of Flame
Wizard Attack 1: Burning Hands
Wizard Attack 1: Darkening Flame
Wizard Attack 1: Erupting Flare
Wizard Attack 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard Attack 1: Magic Missile
Wizard Utility 2: Shield
Wizard Utility 2: Moonstride
Wizard Attack 3: Fire Shroud
Wizard Attack 3: Cinderfall
Wizard Attack 5: Fireball
Wizard Attack 5: Summon Magma Beast
Wizard Utility 6: Fire Shield
Wizard Utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard Attack 7: Fire Burst
Wizard Attack 7: Fire Sea Travel
Wizard Attack 9: Firescythe
Wizard Attack 9: Wall of Fire
Wizard Utility 10: Arcane Gate
Wizard Utility 10: Illusory Wall
Master of Flame Attack 11: Fanning the Flames
Master of Flame Utility 12: Burning Transformation

FEATS
Level 1: Hellfire Arcanist
Level 2: Staff Expertise
Level 4: Toughness
Level 6: Unarmored Agility
Level 8: Superior Fortitude
Level 10: Improved Initiative
Level 11: War Wizardry
Level 12: Dispater's Iron Discipline

ITEMS
Defensive Quarterstaff
Amulet of Protection
Adventurer's Kit[/sblock]

The pyromancer's bonus to damage stacks with the feat Hellfire Arcanist and Staff Expertise still grants a +1 to hit. Toughness becomes an almost must have in this system. It still doesn't solve the problem that the feat bonuses to defences are pretty much must haves as well. In fact, it may even make them overpowered. Healing will become a more tactical proposition simply because you'll be able to heal someone from 1 to full with one use of a leader heal so you won't want to waste it until the person is really low. I can see this only exacerbating the yo-yo effect.

All in all, though, I'm still positive that this is a workable system and would only require some common sense tweaks here and there to make it work whilst still having about 70-80% of 4e material usable and useful without significant or even any change.