Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[mroberon1972]

Page 21:

There seems to be a bunch of missing data under Spellcasting limits.

Between the 1st and 2d column...

Thanks...

Update: I would also like a better description of why the MP limit for casting a spell rises so quickly when learning the same spell list. I better description would be of help...

 

[torem13]

For Detect Magic, that's not quite right. First, you have a limit to how many 'free cantrips' you get each day, so you can detect magic whenever you want, as long as you have free cantrips to spare (or you want to spend 1 MP after your 'free' cantrips run out). Also, it would only take 2 rounds to use detect magic, not a minute, but of course you might've been using 'minute' in a more colloquial sense.

As for a flaming sword, under Create [Element] there's the option for an elemental weapon enhancement, so you can use Infuse Force 1/Create Fire 1/Gen 1 to create a +1 sword that does +1d6 points of fire damage. Since it's a total of a 3-MP effect, the cost to create a permanent enhancement of this type would be 9,000gp. I know, it's not exactly the same as the 8,000 for a core rulebook +1 flaming sword, but it fits into the standardized cost system of the rest of the magic items in the book, and isn't a huge change, so hopefully its benefits outweigh its drawbacks.

This is from page 76 in the book. Second Column under Identify Magic.

Detect Magic (0 MP, DC 10). Each attempt to detect
magic takes one minute. If you succeed the check, you
know whether there is any magic in the area of effect.

Does this mean it takes 2 rounds to cast and then one minute duration?

I figured out the flaming sword. The cost actually become cheaper for this system at +3 weapons or better.

 

[RangerWickett]

Page 21:

There seems to be a bunch of missing data under Spellcasting limits.

Between the 1st and 2d column...

Thanks...

That's not cool. I guess a bit got messed up in layout. It's just missing one line. The full paragraph ought to read:

"Thus, if a 20th level Mage knew only 1 Infuse spell list and 2 Heal spell lists, she could only cast Infuse spells of up to 5 MP, Heal spells of up to 10 MP. She could, however, cast Heal Life 10/Infuse Earth 5/Gen 5."

 

[RangerWickett]

This is from page 76 in the book. Second Column under Identify Magic.

Detect Magic (0 MP, DC 10). Each attempt to detect
magic takes one minute. If you succeed the check, you
know whether there is any magic in the area of effect.

Does this mean it takes 2 rounds to cast and then one minute duration?

I figured out the flaming sword. The cost actually become cheaper for this system at +3 weapons or better.

Yes, unless it's a signature spell, you spend two rounds to cast, and then you concentrate for one minute (unless you pick the enhancement that lets you do it more quickly). Now, usually you'll pick the duration of 'concentration' when you're trying to detect magic, since you have to concentrate to use it anyway, and picking the concentration duration lets you make several attempts if you want.

Actually, that's a difference that probably wasn't spelled out well enough, now that I think about it. For divination, dispel magic, and scry, you make a check, and if you succeed, the spell lasts for the duration. For spellcraft, the duration lasts for however long you pay for, and during that time you can make several checks

 

[mroberon1972]

I would also like a better description of why the MP limit for casting a spell rises so quickly when learning from the same spell list. I better description would be of help...

It seems that low level characters can generally specialize in something like transform, placing 4 lists in varing forms of transform, and be able to spend every point of thier power for one big effect.

What would be the reason for building a system like this?

 

[RangerWickett]

Oh, well there's still the normal caster level MP limit. So if you're 5th level, you're not going to be able to spend more than 5 MP total on a single spell anyway. You could know 10 different Evoke spells, and you still couldn't cast Evoke Fire 6.

Basically, it's a two-pronged balance. You're limited once by caster level, once by the number of spell lists you know of a given action type. You can't go over either of the limits. The spell-lists-known restriction is to encourage spending more than a single spell list in each field. It keeps a mage from just knowing one Heal list (Heal Life) and being able to use all the healing spells he'd ever want. It makes high-level magic have an extra prerequisite.

Most mages, for instance, won't want to 'waste' lists on things like Heal Earth or Heal Air, because usually you'll be healing party members, which are [life] creatures, not air or earth elements (or walls of stone). This means that if the mages just want to have access to a little healing, then can get by with just the one spell list. Devoted healers, though, will take several lists, and will probably grab the Heal Specialist feat.

 

[mroberon1972]

Oh, well there's still the normal caster level MP limit. So if you're 5th level, you're not going to be able to spend more than 5 MP total on a single spell anyway. You could know 10 different Evoke spells, and you still couldn't cast Evoke Fire 6.

Basically, it's a two-pronged balance. You're limited once by caster level, once by the number of spell lists you know of a given action type. You can't go over either of the limits. The spell-lists-known restriction is to encourage spending more than a single spell list in each field. It keeps a mage from just knowing one Heal list (Heal Life) and being able to use all the healing spells he'd ever want. It makes high-level magic have an extra prerequisite.

Most mages, for instance, won't want to 'waste' lists on things like Heal Earth or Heal Air, because usually you'll be healing party members, which are [life] creatures, not air or earth elements (or walls of stone). This means that if the mages just want to have access to a little healing, then can get by with just the one spell list. Devoted healers, though, will take several lists, and will probably grab the Heal Specialist feat.

Wait... Wait...

Is that what it says in the book?

AH!!!!

You cannot spend more MP than either of the following:
- The max magic points as dictated by your level (on a one for one basis).
- More than 5 x the number of spell lists of a paticular action type. 1 list = 5 MP max, 2 lists = 10 MP max, 3 = 15 MP each, 4 = unlimited MP.

Now, another question: does the limit include all modifiers to a spell?

Would a fifth level caster use:

Evoke fire 5/gen 5

or

Evoke fire 4/gen 1

As a maxed spell? In other words, if the max per part fo the spell, or for the total spell?

I think I've got it, but I want to make sure of the limiting factors before deciding on the power levels of such spell casters...

Right now, a fifth level caster would make fireball as the following:

Fireball
(Evoke fire 1/gen 4)

Spell causes a 20' radius burst of fire damage. The damage is 2d6.

Cost: Evoke fire = 1mp, Medium range = 2mp, Area 20' = 2mp: 5mp total

It would seem that a fifth level Mage would be able to cast it a max of 7 times before depleting all of his points (35).

A normal Wizard would be able to cast one full powered fireball for 5d6 damage, and slightly better range.

So, Mages have a lower max power, but can spread it around more?

 

[RangerWickett]

Yeah, pretty much. EOM mages have a lot of flexibility, but less raw power, especially when it comes to damage dealing. I knew that the nice array of spell lists would give them a lot of things they could be cool at, so they don't need to be killing things right and left.

In general, EOM has less swinginess at high levels, I hope. At least the swinginess requires more power-gaming to use, instead of it being blatant. In core rules, any good high-level wizard ought to have finger of death and power word kill, both of which are instant kills, which spoils the fun when you use them on the party.

The closest thing you have to an instant kill in EOM is transforming someone into an inanimate object, but even that is only until the spell's duration ends. It accomplishes the same thing for the purposes of combat (i.e., defeating monsters), but it gives more options for dealing with it.

EOM magic will play a little differently than core magic. I tried to hew close to the core rules, but no doubt my personal philosophy made certain things subtly shift in the direction I prefer. For instance, while a high-level, focused Evoke specialist can still deal ~40 damage to a large group of critters or ~70 damage to a single target, but he doesn't have any spells that do ~70 damage to multiple targets.

Ooh, I need to post Captain Blowshi'tup. He was a fun thought experiment.

 

[mroberon1972]

Hmnnn...

Oh! Oh!

I got an idea!

How about the ability to push past Max sp limits by taking con damage that cannot be healed except with rest.

Hmnnn... A one for one basis seems good... Would give a good one shot punch.

Perhaps even make it into a feat?

Sacrifice I
This feat allows the spellcaster to expend spell points beyond his normal limit. For each consititution point spent, the mage can surpass his mp limit by one point to a maximum of 1.5 times his spellcaster level. The consititution point loss is damage, not drain, and is recovered at one point per day of rest.

Sacrifice II
Prereq: Sacrifice I, spellcaster level 10
This feat allows the spellcaster to expend spell points beyond his normal limit. For each consititution point spent, the mage can surpass his mp limit by two points to a maximum of twice his spellcaster level. The consititution point loss is damage, not drain, and is recovered at one point per day of rest.

 

[RangerWickett]

Already in Lyceian Arcana. *grin*