Elements of Magic (revised) -- Controls on the illusionist?

[Particle_Man]

I just got the pdf of Elements of Magic - Revised and was skimming through it. I like it, but I was wondering if I missed something. Are there any controls on what the illusionist can make an illusion of? (aside from the Monty Python foot of the DM, of course). Because a few of the spells lists give some "reality" to an illusionist's spells. I.e. One could at a fairly low level create an illusion of a gargantuan dragon and get it to do 60% of a gargantuan dragon's damage. That is a LOT.

I was thinking of using the "Summon" table to control what one could make illusions of, if one were doing monsters with "reality" attached (if no reality is attached, then I don't care, since it won't unbalance anything). Roughly, a character can make an illusion with reality of a creature with a CR equal to the spell points one dumps into the spell (which can't go higher than one's level), or multiple lesser "creatures". For non-creature damage, I was thinking a cap at 1d6 + (# of spell points) d6, times the reality percentage. For the created objects I used the table under "Create" to determine the maximum gp value of the objects created (although it seems too easy to get the "unlimited" category, but thank god it can't be used to damage anyone direclty).

But that is me being ah hoc. If there are rules for reality enhanced illusions that I missed, can someone point them out to me?

Adthanksvance.

 

[Particle_Man]

Bumped for the weekday crowd

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Illusionary Creature - Shadow Creature

I did not see any real rules for this.. and after skimming some conversions of the old Shadow Mage, I can see a possible need for them

Perhaps use the summoning table, but treat the CR of the creature to be 1/10th per 10% of 'real' damage, so to get your Gargantuation CR 20 Dragon dealing 60% damage, you would have to spend enoung mana on the strong creature enhancement for a CR of 12... leaving not many MP to make the thing beleivable...

Thats just an off-the cuff thought from a 'weekday crowd' kinda guy!

 

[RangerWickett]

Ach. I'll fix this, and reply when I've come up with something. Oops. heh heh

 

[Particle_Man]

As long as you are doing that, can you clarify the whole Charm/Compel MP vs. max.HD thing? It seems to be the case that spells that use both charm and compel use the total MP from the charm list in the spell and the compel list in the spell to determine MP vs. Max. HD. Now if it is a charm/evoke/gen spell, does it use the mp only from the charm side, or does it use MP from the whole spell, when determining the max HD it can effect?

Also, I notice that with create 6+ (as in create nature) you can create ANYTHING of any value. Isn't that a little bit much?

Oh, and I like the book overall. I find this to be an illusionist I want to play, which has only happened with me in gurps and 1st ed., so far. I just don't know what spell lists my character would take after all of the illusion ones, plus the 2 builder lists (create force and create nature) to get 2 of the illusion ones. Can you trade in spell lists for something else, like a feat or something?

 

[RangerWickett]

Also, I notice that with create 6+ (as in create nature) you can create ANYTHING of any value. Isn't that a little bit much?

Not if you can only have it for a minute or so at a time. Remember that, even with Create Death to let the object be combined with something else, when the spell ends, the object keeps its shape but becomes some similar, worthless item. Really, objects have just a few tiers of value:

* Pittances, like tools and bowls.
* Cheap items, like weapons.
* Expensive items, like armor.
* Huge items, like houses and boats.

You can't sell these things, usually, because the create rules say that it's fairly obvious that an object is magical, and for huge items, it's probably standard practice to have someone doublecheck magically to make sure the item isn't fake.

I don't really see what the balance problem might be. Sure, you can use Create Metal to create a giant, beautiful golden crown, but what's it going to profit you?

 

[RangerWickett]

As long as you are doing that, can you clarify the whole Charm/Compel MP vs. max.HD thing? It seems to be the case that spells that use both charm and compel use the total MP from the charm list in the spell and the compel list in the spell to determine MP vs. Max. HD. Now if it is a charm/evoke/gen spell, does it use the mp only from the charm side, or does it use MP from the whole spell, when determining the max HD it can effect?

Only MP actually spent on Charm and Compel spell lists count. General enhancements do not, nor do other types of spell lists.

Here's the text from the book:

"Charm spells are affected by the target’s Hit Dice. The MP of the Charm spell determines its HD Threshold. A creature above the HD Threshold gets a bonus to its save equal to the number of Hit Dice it has above the threshold. For example, a 20th level human Fighter would get a +15 bonus to save against a Charm Humanoid 0 spell. For the purposes of determining HD Threshold, a combined spell with both Charm and Compel lists uses the total MP of those lists to determine the Threshold."

If there's something unclear about that, let me know, so we can fix it.

 

[Particle_Man]

Ah, I missed the line that said "you cannot permanently create an object worth more than 1 gp". That makes me feel better. I am still a bit concerned with the easy access to nonmagical stuff like adamantine weapons (albeit temporary ones) but that is not a big deal. And that there are other nonmagical materials found in other books that I worry about easy access to is hardly your problem, since you can't be expected to deal with every possible synergistic effect between 3rd party materials.

 

[Particle_Man]

Only MP actually spent on Charm and Compel spell lists count. General enhancements do not, nor do other types of spell lists.

Here's the text from the book:

"Charm spells are affected by the target’s Hit Dice. The MP of the Charm spell determines its HD Threshold. A creature above the HD Threshold gets a bonus to its save equal to the number of Hit Dice it has above the threshold. For example, a 20th level human Fighter would get a +15 bonus to save against a Charm Humanoid 0 spell. For the purposes of determining HD Threshold, a combined spell with both Charm and Compel lists uses the total MP of those lists to determine the Threshold."

If there's something unclear about that, let me know, so we can fix it.

The part I found unclear was the second sentence in your quote "The MP of the Charm spell determines its HD Threshold." To me, if one casts a spell that is Charm Humanoid 2/Evoke Fire 3/Gen 4, then that is a Charm spell, and its MP is 7. You meant by "charm spell" only that part of the spell directly contributed to by the charm list. I assume that means the relevant MP is 2. That confused me. Someone casting Charm 2/Evoke Fire 3/Gen 4 is casting one spell, not three, so if it is a Charm spell, it is also a fire spell at the same time, and the spell, as a whole, costs 7 MP. So to clarify, you could replace the 2nd sentence with something like "The MP of the Charm list(s) used determines its HD Threshold", or even better, "The MP of the Charm component of the spell (not including general enhancements) determines its HD Threshold" to specifically exclude the part of the spell, if any, that has non-charm components (like Fire, and General, in the above example).

And of course you could do the same for the similar comments in the Compel section. Or you could just write in both places "The total MP of the Charm and Compel components of the spell (not including general enhancements) determines its HD threshold." That would have made it more clear to me, and would have saved you a little space, since you would not have had to add an extra sentence about combining charm and compel in the charm section (and actually, this would also apply to the compel section).

I appreciate that you are keeping up with supporting this material. I think I will combine this pdf with that new Excaliber book by RPG objects. From what I have heard about the setting, if I just ban the Evoke lists I should be good to go.

 

[RangerWickett]

Excaliber/bur? What's that?