Elements of Magic (revised) -- Controls on the illusionist?

RangerWickett said:
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Particle_Man said:
I just got the pdf of Elements of Magic - Revised and was skimming through it. I like it, but I was wondering if I missed something. Are there any controls on what the illusionist can make an illusion of? (aside from the Monty Python foot of the DM, of course). Because a few of the spells lists give some "reality" to an illusionist's spells. I.e. One could at a fairly low level create an illusion of a gargantuan dragon and get it to do 60% of a gargantuan dragon's damage. That is a LOT.

Okay, I think I'll include a detailed section on adjudicating illusions in LA. Wanna help brainstorm some checks & balances?

Just as some thought checking, to get a convincing image of a gargantuan dragon, you'd need at least average visual, sound, and tactile (otherwise you can't /feel/ that you're getting hurt). That's at least Illusion Light 1/Sound 1/Crystal 1/Force 5/Gen 4, for 20-ft. radius area and a decent range. A 12-MP effect for a spell that can be disbelieved. Of course, even if it's disbelieved half the time, and it does only 60% damage, that's still 30% of a claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail attack. I'd like to hear some personal experiences for how this works.

Then again, can you create an illusion of a '20th level fighter', who'd do tons of damage with a much smaller scale? No, I think this brand of illusion needs some sort of default damage rating, so that you don't have to bother with checking the monster manual when you're just creating an illusion of a big critter.

Maybe, putting it simply, if it's a round by round basis, like a dragon attacking you, say 1d6 for simple, 2d6 for standard, 3d6 for complex. The dragon doesn't have to make its attacks. Maybe, um . . . you pick one target a round, and if the person fails their save, they take the damage.

And then, maybe if it's a one-time thing, like an illusory fireball or avalanche, multiply that by 3 or 4. Ai, illusions are complicated. I'm open to suggestions.
 

Illusion Nature...

Here's my brainstorm:

Open up the Illusion list to the Creature Type. Caster must know the illusion lists of the cardinal elements prior to selecting a Creature list.
3MP, create a simple visual/audible/tactile/live illusion of a creature
5MP, create a standard ...
7MP, create a complex...

Change Illusion:Force,
+1MP per CR of creature emulated or spell level being emulated
If you know only the cardinal elements, the creature deals 20% damage.
If you know both cardinal and the paraelements, the creature deals 40% damage.
if you know all the illusion element aspects, the creature deals 60%


In practice: Young Red Dragon CR 7
Transform: Dragon 18 changes target, 100% damage.. nasty nasty.
Summon: Dragon7 or 14 if you want him freindly.. a good idea usually. 100% damage.
Illusion: Dragon5/Illusion:Force7 for a standard illusion under your control

Illusionary Flame Strike, an Evoke:Fire4/Gen2 spell
Illusion:Fire5/Illusion:Force2Gen2 for a standard version.

Wait.. the illusion costs more? and can be disbelieved? Oh.. it can also be 'recast' every round if you really want to for the duration of the spell...so its more like 10 copies of Flame Strike.

Let me know what you think!
 
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It depends on whether you are going for "realism" or "simplicity" Option one goes for the former, option two goes for the latter.

Option 1: Piggy-backing on what you already have in other lists. If it duplicates an Evoke spell, then use the Evoke damage cap. (Whether you would have the same damage cap., or an expanded damage cap. to reflect that only 20-60% of the damage gets through, is up to you -- also, would the lesser damage getting through allow a save vs. illusion, or would the person just think she was lucky?). This solves the "mass vs. individual" problem, I think.

And how would this be roleplayed? Would you have the victim believe that they took 100% of the damage until they make a save or the fight is over? If they would have gone unconscious/died if the damage were actually 100%, what happens? Or do they realize that they are only taking the damage they are actually taking (the 20%-60%), even if they fail their save/not get to roll a save?

If it duplicates a Summon spell, use that list you have under Summon to cap the CR, and hopefully the corresponding damage (this is if it is partially real. If it is non-real, then there are no limits, to quote the d02 system designer). :) Again, you would have to decide whether the 20%-60% real cap means that you could "summon" creatures of higher CR (as a poster put above). On the one hand it would be nice - but you don't want to make illusion lists with reality either more or less desireable than the relevant Evoke/Create/Summon spells.

The way I would see it, the illusionist gains versitility, but on the other hand a good evoker/summoner/creator will already have that versility if they have enough Evoke/Summon/Create spells. Mind you the illusionist has versitility between whether the illusion will be "evoke", "summon" or "create". The illusionist gains "instant friendliness" over the summoner, and could also "summon" someone from the plane she is on, which the summoner can't do.

If it duplicates a Create spell, it can't cause damage directly (but could indirectly). Here the 20%-60% of what can be Created might fall down a bit, since the Create list cap is related to gp cost, and burning lava is relatively cheap. :) (Actually, how do you cost out burning lava? or a pit (a la illusion duplicating create void? or illusion space/illusion force? or how do you make a fake pit anyhow?)?) Maybe use the Evoke cap for damage again, if the object should indirectly cause damage. Or maybe this would be the time to use the simpler "per round" rule below:

Option 2: Say that the particular spell/monster evoked is irrelevant -- a victim takes 20%-60% of X damage per round (force damage?), where X is a ceiling controlled by the MP of the spell. If there is more than one victim, then the caster can spread out this damage (1d6 for victim A, 2d6 for victim B, or else roll up the total damage and allocate the hp of damage as one sees fit, but that might give too much control to the mage -- or be nicer to the victims and say the person with the lowest will save/wis/int, in that order, takes all the damage coming to the group, but then the others in the group would know it wasn't real since they should have taken damage. hmmm....). Or you can be nice to the caster by having each victim in a "mass" attack take the percentage of X damage. The advantage of this simpler method is that the caster would not need stats for the "Creatures" it "summons" or "evoke lists" it "uses" or even indirectly the "create" spells it "uses". The relevant creature/evoke/created indirect damage effect just "hits" and does that partial damage. And then the cap and the % loss, could be justified by being "auto damage" each round (assuming you have illusion Life in the mix to let the illusion keep acting on its own) or could be "one round only" or "spread out over rounds" or what have you.

Or else, looking at your thoughts, maybe have a "Damage pool" of xd6 (=MP?) that the spell could cause, and this can be spread out over many rounds or done "all at once", regardless of the illusion? Maybe the simple/standard/complex could be used (instead of as a %) to determine how many people, max., could take this damage. So a simple spell with a cap of 5d6 does either 5d6 to one person and nothing else ever, or 2d6 to one person one round, 3d6 to a second person a second round, and nothing else ever. The same spell, if standard, can to 5d6 to 3 people, and nothing else ever, or be more spread out, but could not do more than 5d6 to one person in one round. The same spell, if complex, can do 5d6 to 5 people, using the same idea. And the 1-3-5 thing is just my first thought -- you might want to adjust it. The 5d6 cap was similarly pulled out of the air for the sake of the example. The nice thing here is that the damage does not change, whether it is a "Fireball", or "demon" or "burning lava". Note: if you want someone to take damage, you have to "justify" it by having your illusion "hit" that person or otherwise seem to affect that person. But if someone "should" have been damaged but is allocated no damage (or perhaps "should" have been completely immune (but I am immune to fireballs!), and yet take damage!), they can roll a will save, as per your rules on p. 65. But you can tailor this, as an illusionist (if you want person A to take the damage instead of person B, have the demon "miss" person B, or the fireball only "wash over" person A, or the lava, er, flow around person B briefly, for whatever reason (a sudden air bubble in the lava or something).

Note on the simpler methods, the damage is likely to be automatic, so that would be an argument for keeping it low. If you allow "Saves" for half or no damage vs. this damage, or "defence" or "dodge" rolls or whatever, then the damage cap should be correspondingly higher. How low or high I leave up to you.

Or, instead of create force as a prereq., just have evoke force as a prereq, and have the damage entirely separate from the illusion, but seeming to come from the illusion. I guess it depends on what you want the 20th level illusion caster to be able to do, compared to the 20th level evoke caster and the 20th level summon caster and the 20th level create caster.

Also, is the damage of a particular type, like Force (or is it whatever you are duplicating -- fire, acid, etc.?) or is it untyped? This might be relevant for special resistances, and maybe that 1.5x damage on some types.

While we are at it, there is a cut-and-paste typo for the top of the 2nd column on page 21. I assume it is under the art?

And to clarify, if one has both spell list familiarity (Evoke Death) and spell list familiarity (Hex Life) and casts the Evoke Death 7/Hex Life 10/Gen 4 spell, it would be 2 MP cheaper (one for each spell list familiarity involved in the spell)? This is the feat on p. 16).

And back to illusions, under Resisting Illusions on p. 65, you say "Additionally, if a creature is "hit" by an illusion and should take damage, it automatically makes a will save to disbelieve, unless you included an Illusion Force component to your spell. If it fails, it may still suspect an illusion, or it might think the illusion is incorporeal or somehow else unable to affect him". I would suggest, for clarity, that you replace the words "makes a will save" with the words "rolls a will save", since I assume by the following sentence that you don't intend creatures "hit" by a non-force illusion to automatically succeed at a will save.

Anyhow, best of luck. And I do like your work. I wouldn't be so picky if it wasn't worth bothering over.
 
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Other ideas:

1) Have the damage done by illusions be non-lethal damage (what used to be called subdual damage in 3.0).

Mind you, some beings are immune to non-lethal damage, which may not be what you want. Or it may fit what you want. YOu allow undead to be charmed, so can they be affected by non-lethal damage from illusions? I don't know, but you can decide this if you like.

2) There is still the Illusion Nature issue used to create partially real objects. Is it that objects created this way can never do damage, even indirectly (unlike objects created with create nature spells)? Or is it that, like create nature spells, they only do damage indirectly, and never do direct damage? If the latter, you need to decide how to deal with it. (Damage cap., damage pool, etc.) and also what "type" if any the damage would be (nature? whatever is being duplicated in the illusion? untyped?) and what effect, if any, that would have. This could be non-lethal damage to.

3) And there is the old fashioned "torch" problem. If you create the illusion of a burning torch, what happens? Do you light up a room? Do you have to create the illusion of a lit room, which may or may not match the real room? If you use Create Nature to create a partial torch, and then light it, does it give full illumination, but only for 20% of an hour? (longer than the likely duration of torch itself) or does it only give a lesser radius of illumination? Between that radius and a torch's "expected" radius of illumination, do we have a) nothing -- no illumination, or b) "fake" illumination -- much like the "Fake" room that illusionist comes up, as per the possible idea above on the burning torch without illusion nature as a component?

Aren't illusions fun? Its too easy to make them either too powerful or completely useless, or else restrict their options severely (the latter is how 3e handled it, and I didn't like it). Best of luck...
 

Particle_Man said:
While we are at it, there is a cut-and-paste typo for the top of the 2nd column on page 21. I assume it is under the art?

I'll look into it.

And to clarify, if one has both spell list familiarity (Evoke Death) and spell list familiarity (Hex Life) and casts the Evoke Death 7/Hex Life 10/Gen 4 spell, it would be 2 MP cheaper (one for each spell list familiarity involved in the spell)? This is the feat on p. 16).

If I recall it correctly, yes, this works. Of course, you have to be fairly high level to get this feat, but if you want to take it three times and cast a lot of spells that combine different spell lists, more power to ya.

And back to illusions, under Resisting Illusions on p. 65, you say "Additionally, if a creature is "hit" by an illusion and should take damage, it automatically makes a will save to disbelieve, unless you included an Illusion Force component to your spell. If it fails, it may still suspect an illusion, or it might think the illusion is incorporeal or somehow else unable to affect him". I would suggest, for clarity, that you replace the words "makes a will save" with the words "rolls a will save", since I assume by the following sentence that you don't intend creatures "hit" by a non-force illusion to automatically succeed at a will save.

True. Thank you. I'm still pondering how to go about this.
 

RangerWickett said:
True. Thank you. I'm still pondering how to go about this.

It is a toughie. I personally think that creating rules for illusions, especially partially real illusions, has been the bete noir of all game designers everywhere. Some just ignore the problem, leaving it for DM's or GM's to figure out. Others try to solve the problem, either by making illusions totally fake, or by eliminating options of what can be real, or by allowing illusionists to do almost anything. It's tricky to do in a balanced manner that yet leaves flexibility (and some reality) in the hands of the illusionist. So good luck with it. I applaud your efforts, and look forward to your results.
 

Here's an idea. Maybe.

Take a normal spell, like Evoke Fire 5/Gen 3. Tack on Illusion Force 1, and turn the spell into an illusion, so you can disbelieve it, but it does partial damage to your foe. Or something like that, allowing you to make spells illusory. Could you turn someone else's spells illusionary?

I'll think some more. Grr. Maybe a clear option of Illusion Force to do damage. If you pay 1 MP, people will think they're getting hurt, and thus it'll keep them from disbelieving, but the spell won't actually deal any damage. If you pay 3 MP, the spell can deal 1d6 points of damage for each MP spent on illusion lists. 5 MP means the spell does up to 1d6 points of damage per MP per round.

So Illusion Force 3/Light 1/Gen 1 might create the image of a wraith reaching out and sucking your soul, and if you fail your save, you take 4d6 damage, but if you succeed, you take no damage. It would affect everyone in the area of effect. Illusion Force 5/Illusion Sound 3/Gen 1 could create an evil-sounding voice muttering, "Feel your flesh melt, feel your bones crack," and those who fail their save would think they're taking 8d6 damage per round. Or is that too much?
 

Damage from illusions

The way I run them, an illusion that causes damage 'feels' light, usually described as 'that didn't hurt as much as you expected'. The player then may request a disbelief roll. Once they disbelieve, the illusion can do no further damage to them. Having them do non-lethal damage could be a good way of doing it, and automatically does not affect undead/constructs. IMHO thats a good thing.

I would prefer something more like +1MP for 1D6 of damage like the Evoke lists, but I don't want Illusion to turn into the subdual Evoke either... and that would not work well for emulating multi-attack patterns of creatures.

I like the shadow magic of 2nd Edition, and would like to copy that in TEoM, if at all possible.... :)

Particle_Man, just toss in 1MP of Create Light for your torch...
 

As long as you are here, cont...

Under Summon (p.77), why does the cantrip that gets you a loyal and obedient 1/2 CR creature cost 0MP, but to get an obedient creature with a non-cantrip, you have to pay 2MP for the same 1/2 CR creature? (1 MP to get it and 1 MP to make it obedient)? Does one get the obedient enhancement for free, so long as the creature summoned is singular and CR 1/2 or less?
 

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