Eliminating Eastern Flavor From D&D?

[Darrell]

The good/evil dragon dichotomy doesn't exist in my games...for that matter, neither does the metallic/chromatic. In my (asian influence excised) world, there are simply dragons. They may occasionally provide aid to PCs; more often they are a hindrance, if not a foe; and they are all 'western' looking.

I got rid of more than just the asian-influenced things, for what it's worth. In fact, I excised a great deal of the MM outright. For example:

Dwarves/Elves/Halfings: They exist, and are available for player characters, but are even more rare than in the average D&D world.

Giants: No hill/stone/frost/etc.--just giants; they seem to be made of rock and earth, and are often mistaken for low hills when sleeping. Look-wise, have a look at the 'Earth Titan' from the D&D Minis line. They refer to themselves as "eiger," which has been corrupted in some areas into "ogre."

Orcs: Similar to 'by the book' orcs, but are sort of "uber-Neandertals," in essence. Hobgoblins and bugbears have been merged into these, as well--whenever printed material says "bugbear" or "hobgoblin," I substitute "orc."

Goblins: pretty much by the book, save for my propensity for merging similar species. Goblins live underground, are constantly warring with dwarves, and are called by an assortment of alternate names, including 'knuckers' or 'knockers,' from their habit of tapping on cave walls (usually searching for food, pockets of underground water, or veins of ore-a primitive echolocation technigue) and 'celbyt' or 'kobold.'

Most "monsters" encountered by the PCs will be normal animals, or giant/dire versions thereof; and most foes encountered will be other humans.

Well, as this is (or, at least, is verging on) a thread-jack, that's about enough outta me.

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As many of my Asian friends have put it- "'Oriental' is for things, like rugs. 'Asian' is for people."

Get it wrong, and you've just insulted someone.

But context does matter- some of those same people who told me that have no problem with "We Three Kings," even though, lyrically, it treads close.

 

[S'mon]

And you're right. That said, gold dragons and the entire concept of good-aligned dragons comes from the Orient. In the West, dragons are generally evil or even demonic beings.

Yeah, for this reason I find the Good dragon races never really fit well in my campaign worlds. There must be 20 or 40 reds, blacks and whites for every Good dragon that appears, and then it's usually just a glimpse.

 

[ProfessorPain]

My point was just that while it may be considered a slur, the word Oriental per se is not actually used as a slur. It may become part of a slur by adding a descriptor. (I don't think I can use PM on ENW as I am not a community supporter). Another example, my wife is from the Southern US and regards 'Yank' as a slur, but the British people who call her a Yank are not using it as a slur.

You have a good point, context matters. I think this may also be a US-UK thing, where here you really go out of your way to not to use the word oriental (my asian American friends have made it clear to me that calling a person oriental is a slur to them). Perhaps in the UK the term is less charged. It is interesting that you mention Yank, because where I am from, New England, Yankee doesn't mean someone from the US or someone from the Northern US (though it can mean those things as well), it means someone who can trace their ancestry to the early English Settlers. Usually we use it to refer to people from wealthy white and rich communities who come from English stock. There is also a stereotype here of Yankees as miserly and bigoted.

 

[S'mon]

You have a good point, context matters. I think this may also be a US-UK thing, where here you really go out of your way to not to use the word oriental (my asian American friends have made it clear to me that calling a person oriental is a slur to them). Perhaps in the UK the term is less charged. It is interesting that you mention Yank, because where I am from, New England, Yankee doesn't mean someone from the US or someone from the Northern US (though it can mean those things as well), it means someone who can trace their ancestry to the early English Settlers. Usually we use it to refer to people from wealthy white and rich communities who come from English stock. There is also a stereotype here of Yankees as miserly and bigoted.

To my wife you're a Yankee because you're from New England. To the English my wife's a Yank because she's from the US.

Certainly re Oriental there's a big difference in the UK, probably because most UK students aren't routinely made to read Said. I'd say that in the UK the word is somewhat archaic and rarely used about people, but the idea of taking offense at eg "Oriental Adventures", as I've seen someone on ENW claim, seems a bit ridiculous here.

 

[ProfessorPain]

To my wife you're a Yankee because you're from New England. To the English my wife's a Yank because she's from the US.

Certainly re Oriental there's a big difference in the UK, probably because most UK students aren't routinely made to read Said. I'd say that in the UK the word is somewhat archaic and rarely used about people, but the idea of taking offense at eg "Oriental Adventures", as I've seen someone on ENW claim, seems a bit ridiculous here.

I see. Here Said isn't widely read either. The reason saying "Joe's Oriental" is offensive is because the old timers here used that word disparagingly. There used to be a good deal of racism against asians here because of the war with Japan ( I know you guys were in that war too, but my impression is you were more focused on Germans than the Japanese) and Vietnam. Even though both of our countries speak English, I have encountered some suprising differences, and I suspect that the word Oriental is one of them. My wife is Asian, and I would get a slap to the face if I dared to call her an oriental. Also "oriental adventures" just like "oriental rug" is okay here. Its just when you use it to speak about a person that you run into trouble.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Another example, my wife is from the Southern US and regards 'Yank' as a slur, but the British people who call her a Yank are not using it as a slur.

...It is interesting that you mention Yank, because where I am from, New England, Yankee doesn't mean someone from the US or someone from the Northern US (though it can mean those things as well), it means someone who can trace their ancestry to the early English Settlers. Usually we use it to refer to people from wealthy white and rich communities who come from English stock. There is also a stereotype here of Yankees as miserly and bigoted.

Well, I can't speak for the people from the UK or the northern parts of the US, but as a Southerner, I can say the reason "Yank" is a slur down here is because of the Civil War, a.k.a. the "War of Northern Agression," and is most often used in that context by white Southerners.

the idea of taking offense at eg "Oriental Adventures", as I've seen someone on ENW claim, seems a bit ridiculous here.

That does seem a bit thin-skinned, but sometimes its a question of the relative knowledge of the person taking offense.

Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, a certain city councilman referred to sending reports to a particular gov't bureau as "going down a black hole."

To which another certain (black) city councilman took offense, thinking "black hole" was a racial comment- he even complained on the record AND on local TV. (And even after the term was explained, it took him a while to back down from his outrage.)

And I've seen several blowups over the word "niggardly"

niggardly - definition of niggardly by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
nig·gard·ly (ngrd-l)
adj.
1. Grudging and petty in giving or spending.
2. Meanly small; scanty or meager: left the waiter a niggardly tip.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Well, I can't speak for the people from the UK or the northern parts of the US, but as a Southerner, I can say the reason "Yank" is a slur down here is because of the Civil War, a.k.a. the "War of Northern Agression," and is most often used in that context by white Southerners.


That does seem a bit thin-skinned, but sometimes its a question of the relative knowledge of the person taking offense.

Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, a certain city councilman referred to sending reports to a particular gov't bureau as "going down a black hole."

To which another certain (black) city councilman took offense, thinking "black hole" was a racial comment- he even complained on the record AND on local TV. (And even after the term was explained, it took him a while to back down from his outrage.)

And I've seen several blowups over the word "niggardly"

We have words for you as well. And up here we call it "the war to end slavery". I think we can all agree though that the black hole and niggardly incident were rather silly.

The difference here is black hole and niggardly are not considered slurs in the US, but Oriental is most definitely considered a slur when used to reference a person. American English isn't prescriptive, it is descriptive. Definitions come from usage. The original meaning of Oriental was not a slur, but in the US it came to be one.

Unfortunately in the US there is a trend of people looking to be offended, and the example you supplied is one such case. No reasonable person would find these terms offensive. But in the case of oriental, I think Asian Americans have a point, because it was so often used to belittle them. I can still remember hearing adults use it in that way as a child.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We have words for you as well. And up here we call it "the war to end slavery". I think we can all agree though that the black hole and niggardly incident were rather silly.

Definitely- and a result of not having the words in question as part of their vocabulary.

The original meaning of Oriental was not a slur, but in the US it came to be one.

Very true, and in all fairness, most of the uses I've heard of "Oriental" in reference to a person have not been intended as slurs- they were spoken by someone who "didn't get the memo" as to current usage.

Unfortunately in the US there is a trend of people looking to be offended, and the example you supplied is one such case. No reasonable person would find these terms offensive.

Agreed, but again, its less a question of "reasonable" and more a question of the person's vocabulary (though the councilman in question is infamously prickly about matters of race).

But in the case of oriental, I think Asian Americans have a point, because it was so often used to belittle them.

Definitely. Ditto Native Americans and my supporting their efforts to remove names like "Redskin" or "Chiefs" from the names of American sporting organizations.

 

[Rechan]

The difference here is black hole and niggardly are not considered slurs in the US, but Oriental is most definitely considered a slur when used to reference a person. American English isn't prescriptive, it is descriptive. Definitions come from usage. The original meaning of Oriental was not a slur, but in the US it came to be one.

A better example might be "Tar Baby". It has been used as a slur quite often. However, it is also descriptive of something that you touch and you now can't get off, because you're stuck to it.

So politicians/radio disk jockies have gotten in trouble for using the term correctly, even though it is still associated with a racial epithet.