eliminating hit points
- Thread starter scourger
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G-Monkey
First Post
Personally, I think any attempt to remove HP from D&D is doomed to fail. If you're into that idea, try GURPS. I had an idea years ago to remove AC from D&D, but that got old before too long and we switched to GURPS, aiming for more realism. Eventually, the realism got tiresome and we moved back to D&D. 
Fieari
Explorer
I haven't played Mutants and Masterminds, but the way I understand it, is that you make a damage save, and if you fail, instead of dying, you move to the next "Damage Catagory". Each damage catagory, if I'm not mistaken, gives you penalties.
I think this system may be exactly what you're looking for. And it fits very well with the D20 system.
I think this system may be exactly what you're looking for. And it fits very well with the D20 system.
Arkhandus
First Post
Scourger: What someone was pointing out was, if you keep the normal save mechanic (natural 20 auto-success, natural 1 auto-fail) and 20 1st-level commoners swim across, say, a 10-foot pit of lava, 1 is likely to hop out on the other side unscathed. Not getting splashed by a bit of lava. Swimming in it. Modern scientists can't even approach fresh lava without a special heat-resistant suit, and can't stay near it overly long; actually diving in would kill them regardless. Likewise, if 20 villagers each throw a rock at a passing dragon, 1 is likely to kill the dragon. How? Hit him in the eye and send him careening down to the ground and landing on an upraised pitchfork going through his other eye and into his brain? Because that's about the only (ridiculously) feasible way. An unlucky PC could die suddenly from just stepping on a caltrop.
And how will you differentiate between normal and subdual damage? Some weapons just aren't capable of killing someone unless striking very, very hard at a specific weakspot, and should only ever knock someone out or bruise them. Maybe subdual attacks would stagger a character on a failed massive damage save, then knock them unconscious on a second such failed save (or something along those lines, anyway).
So, basically, what I'm saying is that you should say the natural-1 and natural-20 rules don't apply to these massive damage saves. You should also provide at least some mechanic for being wounded but not dying. I.E. failing a massive damage save by less than 5 points might just leave the character wounded, and perhaps three wounds would send a character to -1 HP, with two wounds disabling them (0 HP), and one wound either being negligible or perhaps partially disabling (i.e. restricted to a partial action each round but not in danger of dropping to -1 from strenuous actions; or perhaps a -2 circumstance penalty on some stuff, like attack rolls, AC, checks, and saves).
BTW, if you do use some sort of wounding, unconsciousness, or staggering effects, you might have to specify how much natural or magical healing will negate them.
And how will you differentiate between normal and subdual damage? Some weapons just aren't capable of killing someone unless striking very, very hard at a specific weakspot, and should only ever knock someone out or bruise them. Maybe subdual attacks would stagger a character on a failed massive damage save, then knock them unconscious on a second such failed save (or something along those lines, anyway).
So, basically, what I'm saying is that you should say the natural-1 and natural-20 rules don't apply to these massive damage saves. You should also provide at least some mechanic for being wounded but not dying. I.E. failing a massive damage save by less than 5 points might just leave the character wounded, and perhaps three wounds would send a character to -1 HP, with two wounds disabling them (0 HP), and one wound either being negligible or perhaps partially disabling (i.e. restricted to a partial action each round but not in danger of dropping to -1 from strenuous actions; or perhaps a -2 circumstance penalty on some stuff, like attack rolls, AC, checks, and saves).
BTW, if you do use some sort of wounding, unconsciousness, or staggering effects, you might have to specify how much natural or magical healing will negate them.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Looks quite a bit like the Injury rules option in UA.
Using Fort saves this kind of way is, IMO, laden with problems. In UA, they address one of these problems (being able to multiclass into many classes with good Fort saves, thereby gaining stupendous bonuses to Fort saves). They don't appear to bother looking much further than that.
Another way is Grim n Gritty. There's no HPs, but there are 'levels' of injury that look a fair bit like Cyberpunk's. . . to me at least.
A shared problem with all the above, is that a class's HD no longer means anything. So certain aspects of class balance go out the window (IMO). That tasty d12 for a Barbarian is nullified, as is the less-than-Fighter-level d8 for Rangers and Monks, f'rex.
I could go on, but I'll just say that I'd be interested in any positive accounts of using this kind of subsystem, because I'd like my suspicions to be wrong in this instance.
Using Fort saves this kind of way is, IMO, laden with problems. In UA, they address one of these problems (being able to multiclass into many classes with good Fort saves, thereby gaining stupendous bonuses to Fort saves). They don't appear to bother looking much further than that.
Another way is Grim n Gritty. There's no HPs, but there are 'levels' of injury that look a fair bit like Cyberpunk's. . . to me at least.
A shared problem with all the above, is that a class's HD no longer means anything. So certain aspects of class balance go out the window (IMO). That tasty d12 for a Barbarian is nullified, as is the less-than-Fighter-level d8 for Rangers and Monks, f'rex.
I could go on, but I'll just say that I'd be interested in any positive accounts of using this kind of subsystem, because I'd like my suspicions to be wrong in this instance.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
Elimination of hit points is best achieved by repeated forcible insertion of long bits of sharp metal in places not meant to accomodate them.
Land Outcast
Explorer
ahhhh: evocation spells (scorching ray, comes to mind)
(Did you say the wouldn't be frequent?)
Raging half-orc barbarians
(Did you say the wouldn't be frequent?)
Raging half-orc barbarians
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