MechaTarrasque
Hero
In practice, it tends to be one interesting god, filler, and the opposite alignment god (evil dwarf or good drow) for each race, so it might as well be one god for each race.
D&D 5E Eliminating Non-Human Deities from FR
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I guess it depends on what you mean by "in practice." If you look at the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, or the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (the primary locations they have most recently chose to present the non-FR specific racial pantheons) we find a dozen or more deities for each of the elven and dwarven pantheons.
Traditionally (ie, pre-3e) that really was a thing. It's only since 3e where they've dumbed it down to a primary deity in the core game and shunted off those details to a setting-specific book or a bare mention in other supplements.
Now, if someone doesn't want to use those pantheons, then a universal pantheon makes a lot more sense than a single "god of the elves" and such. But the game does provide full pantheons for many non-human races if desired. Personally I like that level of detail for most of my worlds, but I also like some worlds not to use those. I have basically no interest in a single "god of elves" though. It makes the lore-inferiority of the non-human races absolutely glaring.
GreenTengu
Adventurer
It is worth considering your model for deities as to whether this would be a good change.
The current model of deities in Forgotten Realms, in most D&D worlds for that matter, is a model where mortals can gain significant power and slay deities and take their place. In such a world, it probably wouldn't make sense to posit that only humans have the time and the drive to gather so much power. Surely the longer-lived races would be more prone to having this occur.
Granted, most racial deities, at least the ones initially pointed to, are the fathers or mothers of whole races and have been around for longer than their entire race rather than the kind that are champions of their race that rose to prominence, so that does undermine it a bit. If there are instances of mortals rising up to slay gods, even multiple instances within a 100 year span of time, are we really to believe so many racial founders-- particularly those antagonistic towards the peoples who can ascend-- would still be standing after 10,000 years?
Granted, I suppose you could add a caveat that whatever it requires to ascend to godhood requires one to give up racial definitions as matter-of-course and people tend to forget from what people the mortal once came from... though it seems a bit incredulous that people would recall a heroes stories and actions without recalling their defining characteristics.
Of course, you can throw out that model. You can say that no mortal can ascend to godhood, but rather the deities are something special and unique from the very beginning when they come into being-- usually from older deities' powers somehow coming into contact and resulting in a new, generally more focused cosmic force. You would have to change a lot of the history of the land, or at least say that the history as presented didn't really happen that way and it was a complete fiction with deities just not expressing themselves to mortals in clear enough term for these false stories to be overturned.
But, if you did use this model, you could probably get away with saying that a number of the deities are just the same one as worshipped through the lense of different cultures. The real deities would be racal-neutral with numerous names. It could even be that some of the deities thought to be enemies of one another are actually one and the same. Again though, this would mean it is necessary for deities to somehow be unable to interact with followers in a direct and detailed enough manner to clear up the misconceptions... or possibly to somehow benefit from the conflict.
Of course, even if you were to do that, it doesn't preclude the possibility that one deity was chiefly responsible for shaping a particular race to be different from the others and thus it would still be their chief deity. Talos and Gruumish being one and the same or Tyr and Maglibiyet being the same would just mean that Orcs primarily worship Talos and Goblins primarily worship Tyr and probably their image would be so closely linked that Talos would be generally portrayed as an Orc and Tyr would be primarily portrayed as a Hobgoblin. Granted, it would mean that there are worshippers of these deities that are not the primarily race they are associated with-- so that is something-- whether that means that followers of the same deity can reach beyond racial lines to join together more easily or if they conflict bitterly over interpretations of the doctrine are up to you.
The current model of deities in Forgotten Realms, in most D&D worlds for that matter, is a model where mortals can gain significant power and slay deities and take their place. In such a world, it probably wouldn't make sense to posit that only humans have the time and the drive to gather so much power. Surely the longer-lived races would be more prone to having this occur.
Granted, most racial deities, at least the ones initially pointed to, are the fathers or mothers of whole races and have been around for longer than their entire race rather than the kind that are champions of their race that rose to prominence, so that does undermine it a bit. If there are instances of mortals rising up to slay gods, even multiple instances within a 100 year span of time, are we really to believe so many racial founders-- particularly those antagonistic towards the peoples who can ascend-- would still be standing after 10,000 years?
Granted, I suppose you could add a caveat that whatever it requires to ascend to godhood requires one to give up racial definitions as matter-of-course and people tend to forget from what people the mortal once came from... though it seems a bit incredulous that people would recall a heroes stories and actions without recalling their defining characteristics.
Of course, you can throw out that model. You can say that no mortal can ascend to godhood, but rather the deities are something special and unique from the very beginning when they come into being-- usually from older deities' powers somehow coming into contact and resulting in a new, generally more focused cosmic force. You would have to change a lot of the history of the land, or at least say that the history as presented didn't really happen that way and it was a complete fiction with deities just not expressing themselves to mortals in clear enough term for these false stories to be overturned.
But, if you did use this model, you could probably get away with saying that a number of the deities are just the same one as worshipped through the lense of different cultures. The real deities would be racal-neutral with numerous names. It could even be that some of the deities thought to be enemies of one another are actually one and the same. Again though, this would mean it is necessary for deities to somehow be unable to interact with followers in a direct and detailed enough manner to clear up the misconceptions... or possibly to somehow benefit from the conflict.
Of course, even if you were to do that, it doesn't preclude the possibility that one deity was chiefly responsible for shaping a particular race to be different from the others and thus it would still be their chief deity. Talos and Gruumish being one and the same or Tyr and Maglibiyet being the same would just mean that Orcs primarily worship Talos and Goblins primarily worship Tyr and probably their image would be so closely linked that Talos would be generally portrayed as an Orc and Tyr would be primarily portrayed as a Hobgoblin. Granted, it would mean that there are worshippers of these deities that are not the primarily race they are associated with-- so that is something-- whether that means that followers of the same deity can reach beyond racial lines to join together more easily or if they conflict bitterly over interpretations of the doctrine are up to you.
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The expansion you refer to first occurred in Dragon Magazine (1982, numbers 58 to 62), in a series of articles by Roger E Moore (and Georgia Moore, for the elven gods). These were then reprinted in Unearthed Arcana as Appendix S. Monster Mythology then reproduced these gods and added some more.
Thanks! I'll have to check out the original articles.
I have "primal" deities, basically the first ones to come into being after the formation of the cosmos.
They are widespread (although sometime forgotten). I also have the Micheal Moorcock / OD&D Immortals method, thousands of lesser gods that come and go from mortals or other origins.
As far as Pantheons and races...
I have a viking analogue of humans, that worship a "Norse/Finnish" pantheon that has around 14 deities. The Vaesir[/URL
However, this is the joint faith for a set of humans, dwarves, and a subset of humans. The dwarves follow the faith as a whole, but do tend to look at Nuada, Vulcan, and Magni as dwarves.
So we have humans and dwarves with the same faith.
The subset of humans that are descended from the originals follow the same faith, but leave out the barbarian viking characteristics, and brought in some elven (Tuathan) add-ons.
---
Tiamat, Mother of Monsters (cliche, but we've been playing since the 80s not going to abandon my mythos now) is one of the primal deities from creation. Her and Bahamut, along with Shekinester form a faith called the Draconic Dogma (all three maintain/preserve the universe). Once it started to decline, due to irrelevancy to a large portion of a human empire, it faded away.
However, when there was a rebellion in that empire, a new faith of rebellion and justice arose, championed by the deity Mithril. Who is actually Bahamut. Hecate/Tiamat is still his foe.
There is a demon called Takhisis to the east, that is gaining in power.
BL: Primal deities take many forms and faiths across the universe, and don't care about racial boundaries. The immortal style gods mainly stay on the world of their origin, but can appear as a different form to broaden their base/brand.
They are widespread (although sometime forgotten). I also have the Micheal Moorcock / OD&D Immortals method, thousands of lesser gods that come and go from mortals or other origins.
As far as Pantheons and races...
I have a viking analogue of humans, that worship a "Norse/Finnish" pantheon that has around 14 deities. The Vaesir[/URL
However, this is the joint faith for a set of humans, dwarves, and a subset of humans. The dwarves follow the faith as a whole, but do tend to look at Nuada, Vulcan, and Magni as dwarves.
So we have humans and dwarves with the same faith.
The subset of humans that are descended from the originals follow the same faith, but leave out the barbarian viking characteristics, and brought in some elven (Tuathan) add-ons.
---
Tiamat, Mother of Monsters (cliche, but we've been playing since the 80s not going to abandon my mythos now) is one of the primal deities from creation. Her and Bahamut, along with Shekinester form a faith called the Draconic Dogma (all three maintain/preserve the universe). Once it started to decline, due to irrelevancy to a large portion of a human empire, it faded away.
However, when there was a rebellion in that empire, a new faith of rebellion and justice arose, championed by the deity Mithril. Who is actually Bahamut. Hecate/Tiamat is still his foe.
There is a demon called Takhisis to the east, that is gaining in power.
BL: Primal deities take many forms and faiths across the universe, and don't care about racial boundaries. The immortal style gods mainly stay on the world of their origin, but can appear as a different form to broaden their base/brand.
GameDoc
Explorer
For me this is probably as much of a thought experiment as something I'll really do. I just wondered if you kept on revealing that the nonhuman deities were just aspects of the same one's that humans in FR claim, how it would all shake out. Who is the equivalent to Corellon, Gronolator, Maglubiyet, Lolth, Yondalla, etc.
Overall Tyr is the most like Moradin, I'd think. He even favors a hammer as a weapon in FR. He's just not also a god of creation.
Overall Tyr is the most like Moradin, I'd think. He even favors a hammer as a weapon in FR. He's just not also a god of creation.
The thing with non human deities, is that they can be heavily involved in the history of the race, and their actions usually have a big role in their race's current state (Elven and Drow pantheons are an example of this). Replacing them with another deity would take away from this involvment, or even lead to things that don't make sense, so there's some handwaving to do, if you want to go that route.
Anyway, to answer your question, one of the advantages of a universal pantheon is that you don't really need a single deity for the various races anymore, but the race could worship a combination of human deities that cover all the spheres of infuences of the original pantheon. The dwarves could simply worship Gond, Tyr and Tempus (and give them dwarven names). They also have other deities, that could be reflected by Sune, Waukeen, Grumbar (but this would be stretching it a bit) and so on.
The elves could worship Lathander, Selune, Sune, Mielikki, Akadi, Milil and Mystra. The drow could worship Shar, Garagos, Mask, Lliira and Myrkul/Velsharoon--assuming that the latter is still around, since I've never seen mention of him in 5e (if you want to reflect their current pantheon).
Anyway, to answer your question, one of the advantages of a universal pantheon is that you don't really need a single deity for the various races anymore, but the race could worship a combination of human deities that cover all the spheres of infuences of the original pantheon. The dwarves could simply worship Gond, Tyr and Tempus (and give them dwarven names). They also have other deities, that could be reflected by Sune, Waukeen, Grumbar (but this would be stretching it a bit) and so on.
The elves could worship Lathander, Selune, Sune, Mielikki, Akadi, Milil and Mystra. The drow could worship Shar, Garagos, Mask, Lliira and Myrkul/Velsharoon--assuming that the latter is still around, since I've never seen mention of him in 5e (if you want to reflect their current pantheon).
I would take it from the reverse direction. Make the non-human deities the deities of the human pantheon...and do away with their human analogues and/or make them "human aspects" of the non-human deity.
Your human pantheon god of mountains, the forge, etc. etc...is just Moradin. He is imagined to look like [what we think of as "normal/standard"] Moradin to dwarves. Maybe he's still a dwarf, maybe he's a bent human (like Hephaestus), maybe he's just a normal looking bearded human called "Joe Smith" among humans. But it's all the same deity.
Replace the god of the moon or magic or "defending forests" or whatever, with Corellon for the elves to revere.
Replace the deity of hearth and home with something called Yondalla. Obviously, halflings think she looks like them, dwarves think she looks like them, humans do too, and so on.
Your human pantheon god of mountains, the forge, etc. etc...is just Moradin. He is imagined to look like [what we think of as "normal/standard"] Moradin to dwarves. Maybe he's still a dwarf, maybe he's a bent human (like Hephaestus), maybe he's just a normal looking bearded human called "Joe Smith" among humans. But it's all the same deity.
Replace the god of the moon or magic or "defending forests" or whatever, with Corellon for the elves to revere.
Replace the deity of hearth and home with something called Yondalla. Obviously, halflings think she looks like them, dwarves think she looks like them, humans do too, and so on.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
One thing I should probably bring up is that the idea that certain deities (Like Gruumsh and Talos) are in reality the same being isn't stated anywhere in 5e. I'm assuming this is from 4e, because I don't remember it being stated before that either.
So it is canonically true only for the (probably) 4e Realms, and can be ignored (unless you want to use it) outside of that framework.
So it is canonically true only for the (probably) 4e Realms, and can be ignored (unless you want to use it) outside of that framework.
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