Elminster and Epic Level Fighters

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Elminster and Drizzt have plot immunity.

Next question?

 

[wingsandsword]

So, upon first glance it seems odd that such being as Elminster and high level fighters exist. Anyone who has actually seen Elminster’s build, or, indeed, that of Drizz’t Do’Udren was surely shocked at the sheer ineptitude which with they were designed. Drizz’t, master swordsman that he is, cannot defeat a single CR 15 Fire Giant by himself according to his build in the Player’s Guide to Faerun, while Elminster loses 3 caster levels in Fighter and Rogue, while having 3 in Cleric before taking his Wizard and Archmage levels. He does not even have levels of Mystic Theurge, which would make up slightly for the suck his build has.

Well, Elminster has Fighter, Rogue and Cleric levels "lost" because when they wrote his 3e stats, they actually paid attention to his background and his biography in the novel "Elminster: Making of a Mage" where he was a fighter/rogue as a youth, and converted to the worship of Mystra and served as a mid-ranking cleric before he was chosen personally to study magic and be a Chosen.

In 1e and 2e, getting several levels in Fighter, then dual-classing to for a few more levels Rogue, then dual-classing to Cleric, and finally getting ~30 levels in Wizard (Human Fighter 9/Thief 10/Cleric 11/Wizard 30 would be a juggernaut in AD&D games) was an insanely powerful combination, a "power build" of its era, but loses something in the 2e to 3e conversion because of the change in multiclassing roles and the ridiculously good ability scores it would take (STR 15, DEX 17, WIS 17, INT 17, with an INT 18 needed for 9th level spells), so short of DM fiat like an NPC, no PC would ever roll high enough for a character like that.

The stats for Elminster in 3.x make him strong enough to do everything he was shown doing in the novels, at least in theory. Sometimes it might take some lucky rolls, but it could happen. Also, he's so powerful that unless the party is Epic level, he is clearly stronger than them in every way, so nitpicky details of stats are largely there for show.

In my experience, if I use Elminster, or Drizzt or any other "name" Realms NPC, it's for flavor text or a cameo to advance the plot by giving the PC's a Macguffin or important hint, and probably not in a combat encounter.

I also like to think that it points out how twisted the fixation towards optimization is, and the designers never meant for min-maxed characters to run around mauling things.

 

[GreyLord]

Well, much of it was that originally the game WASN'T made to be the monster it became. In otherwords, Multiclassing optimization, despite some ideas that the writers or others put out regarding game mastery, wasn't at the forefront of the Multiclassing idea.

Sure, they knew some would optimize, but overall it was to allow people to have characters they wanted. Most of these were to reflect the roleplaying aspect of the game, showing the backgrounds of characters.

So Elminister having suboptimal levels of something was more of a roleplaying aspect then anything really dealing with optimization. It was more a reflection of his background than optimization.

The PrC's and MC's craziness came later, AFTER the development of FR campaign...and even then it was more a choice of which path to follow, the Roleplaying background reflections, or the optimization ideas.

At least that's how it appeared to me.

As for survivability, I think that's more dependant on what type of DM you have. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, you will get crushed by certain DM's, whilst others will allow the game to be balanced for all power levels, by adjusting threats specific to what people's strengths and weakneses are.

You also have even other DM's that are more interested in the story and RP aspects than creating threats that will equal out to a set CR or even crush players who aren't optimized. AT the same time those same DM's will randomely create threats that will destroy disruptive players rather and leave the others alone.

It all depends on the DM.

PS: Of course I suppose the creators could have made MC as part of game mastery...but if they did the creators kind of stunk at their own game...

Which is possible...but I'm not certain that speaks anything great if the people who thought they were clever at creating a game of mastery really being bad at their own rules...of course some would say that's why the game was so unbalanced in the first place.

I don't subscribe to that plane of thought however...referring more to my first original point in this post that the game wasn't originally intended for a gamemastery sort of thing, especially in regards to MC.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Ironically enough if you go by strength, the 3rd edition rules kinda did that already with the variable character level versus cr rating so that characters who were lower level would rise in experience points faster than their comrades who just fought the same thing.

Thank you very much Rolemaster.

 

[Diamond Cross]

In 1e and 2e, getting several levels in Fighter,

It may be, but the thing is in those editions you can't dual class unless you have a minimum of 17 in the required stat. And then you can't use the previous class you were in until you were on level higher, or if you did you'd be penalized.

 

[wingsandsword]

It may be, but the thing is in those editions you can't dual class unless you have a minimum of 17 in the required stat. And then you can't use the previous class you were in until you were on level higher, or if you did you'd be penalized.

If you'll notice, I did specify that the "Elminster Build" for Elminster from the novels would take a STR 15, DEX 17, WIS 17 and 18 INT to pull off.

You'd have penalties for using old class abilities before you caught up, but for an NPC doing these things "offstage" in their backstory, that's not an issue.

I just remember in my 2e playing days when people would talk about multiclassing like that through all four class groups like it was the ultimate weapon. If you had the stats, you'd need a DM that left you with a "wide open sandbox" (or a very friendly railroad) type of world where you could go to adventure in ways you could survive under the dual-class restrictions until you got high enough level.

Essentially, it's a theoretical build that was in its own way to 2e what some theoretical power builds were for 3e. It's just when you translate a character that started out as a fighter, multiclassed to rogue (aka thief), then to cleric, then to wizard and became an archmage as a wizard, it's a little weaker in 3.x than 2e. Either way, if it bothers you that much, just add more levels.

Elminster is a plot device, he's well over a thousand years old, and should have as many levels as it takes to do whatever the DM needs. If he's not strong enough for you, write up a version that is. In older AD&D stats, he was anywhere from 29th to 36th level depending on the author IIRC, and I would see nothing wrong with making him up to 45th or 50th level based on how old he is, what he's known to have done, and the level of power attributed to him. (If I ever needed him for a 3.x combat role where stats mattered, I'd probably use Fighter 4/Rogue 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 10/Loremaster 21/Archmage 5 as a 50th level Human (Chosen of Mystra).

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

I remember one adventure that featured Blackstaff, and it basically said to adjust his level such that he is sufficiently intimidating to the PCs. Same thing for other big-name NPCs.

 

[Votan]

It may be, but the thing is in those editions you can't dual class unless you have a minimum of 17 in the required stat. And then you can't use the previous class you were in until you were on level higher, or if you did you'd be penalized.

True, but Fighter 2/Wizard X almost always worked out well as the period of the penalty was short enough that you were bascially short one 2nd level spell in exchange for massively increased survivability. Getting a 17 INT just meant you were a good wizard although the 15 STR was a bit of a waste.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

in second edtion I had the honnor of not 1 but 3 ubber characters like el munchkin as PCs in my games.

1) Alex Evergreen started as a Ranger, made it to level 5 or 6, then duiled into wizard, (when he was 1 of 2 pcs surviving a bad encounter and they recruited new group) and made it up to 14th or 15th level when he started useing mayfair games Archmage rules.

2) Darrian Sylverbane started as a thief with a story point of hateing wizards. He made it all the way to 13th level then duiled into psion and made it well above his thief levels

3) Lyta De'neil (I think i totly just messed up her name) and she was a reverse Elminster, she started as a wizard, made it to what ever level you got stone skin at, then duiled into fighter, and made it up to teens for level then managed to steal divinity from an evil god...becomeing a lesser demi god

so it was do able... but then again for everyone of those I have dozens of stories of times it didn't work so well

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

the only time I saw anyone dual class was when we jumped too many levels early as thives.

I jumped from level 1-8 in theif one night becuse we stole a boat that ended up having thousands of gold worth of goods on it. We did out the xp (2xp per gp) and I jumped 7 levels, so I quickly dual classed into wizard, and found my self in a 2nd level game with 8d6 hps as a 1st level wizard. I spec in Evoc and when I hit level 9 picked back up my shortsword and leather armor...